Transcript #156. How job-hunting has changed - with Evan Sohn.

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Evan: it's perfectly fine at the beginning of an interview process to say to the employer What's your process?

What's your interview process? And by the way, really specific, what are you looking for that's a good fit? Tell me what you're looking for,

Renata Bernarde: Evan Son is the chairman and the chief executive officer of, an on-demand recruiting platform that combines AI and video job-matching technology with the world's largest network of small and independent recruiters. is a software as a service, AI recruiting software.

It helps employers like Amazon and Pfizer source and hire the best candidates out there. These candidates are product managers, business managers, business analysts, and marketing specialists. You get the picture. Basically, is a software that helps employers find you. So when Evan Steam reached out to me for a podcast chat, I was prepared for a very, very techy conversation, but that was not the case.

I was pleasantly surprised and very happy with the outcome, and I believe that many listeners will enjoy this sharp, crisp, and very pragmatic chat that I had with Evan for a few weeks. He goes back to basics and reinforces many messages that we have heard before in this podcast. The need to know your superpower, career, DNA, or exceptional talents.

Call it whatever you wish. If you're struggling to figure out what your superpower is, what your talents are. Fear not. Please, I'd love to help you. Go to my website. You will see that my most accessible service is called Find My Talents. At the time of this recording, it's worth 97 Australian dollars.

That's about 60 US dollars at this stage. and it's a beauty of an assessment. It will deliver to you in spades. You can pair it up with a consultation with me, or you can just have this as your first step in investing in your career. I trust that you will be very happy with the results when you get the report, which highlights your top talents, your career drivers, and your personal values.

With that information, you will have great confidence in developing your professional pitch. To learn more about Find my Talents, please go to my website, That's R E N A T A B E R N A R D There's also a link to it in the episode show notes. But back to our guest, Evanson is a frequent contributor to CNBC, and Yahoo Finance and demonstrates expertise in a diverse set of industries.

He has such a great and interesting career, a word of warning. You will want to take notes. So grab a notebook before you start listening to this episode because it is packed with interesting advice. So thank you, Evan. If you're listening, you were a great guest. I can't wait to have you. Again, everyone enjoyed this conversation, and I hope you get a lot out of it.

 Oh, Evan, so nice to see you. Thanks for making the time. You bet. Yeah. And you were in New Jersey, is that correct? I am in New Jersey. 

Renata Bernarde: Good. And I'm in Melbourne. The, power of technology.

We're gonna talk about technology a lot today. All right, Excellent. Okay, I'd love to start by asking you about your own career trajectory. I checked your LinkedIn profile and I noticed, you know, quite an interesting career, lots of acquisitions and you being quite an entrepreneurial. Probably pivotal piece of the puzzle  in many of those interesting transitions in the businesses you worked for, but I'd love to hear more from you.

Tell me about your career and what led you to become the CEO of Yeah, 

Evan: so you know, I started my first company at the age of 21. Right out right after business school. I went to NYU Business School. Graduated at 21. Started a company in 1989 in mobile computing. So very, very early stage.

I was a programmer through college. Built that company over a decade. Worked with some really fantastic people, fantastic companies. Got acquired by Dunham Bradstreet. Stayed there for a little while, then got pulled out by venture capital company into the security industry. So really spent the two thousands really in security which included an acquisition by a company called Message Labs, which was a UK based company.

Which was then acquired by Symantec. I then went back into mobile and into the payment industry. So really spent the tens in in the payment industry which included an acquisition by Veriphone. And then I was with the Silicon Valley Company for a bunch of years in the payment industry which got acquired by GoDaddy about a year and a half ago.

And then Really got into through one of the uh, investors of the company. I love platforms. I like crowds. You know, I, like these sort of, you know, what's next for a company, understanding what's next? And got involved really at the beginning of 2020 with the company.

Sorry in 2019 and I got involved with the company first as a consultant, and then I became CEO in June of 2020. 

Renata Bernarde: That's amazing. And you know, it's really interesting to see your career evolution. Do you think that your experience as a candidate sometimes having to look for work helps you in the position that you have right now?

Evan: I don't know. You know, probably, you know, the recommendation is, look, I haven't had one job in my career. I've had multiple jobs in my career. I've had jobs that didn't work out. Not everything always works out. I've had good failures as well that go alongside of things. That's why I look at things like, in what was I doing that decade, you know, what industry was I in in that decade?

And yeah, you know, I, Certainly we are the product of all of our past experiences and I've just had the benefit of learning so much from just really, really awesome people. I, just was texting one of them over the weekend, like, you know, I rules that we created as a result of our discussions.

Just great stuff. Really, really fun stuff. 

Renata Bernarde: Yeah. Well, what do you think are the strengths that allowed you to have such a, rich experience in your career? What are your key strengths as a professional? Yeah, so 

 what's my superpower? You know, my superpower really is being able to get hyper, hyper focused on what's next.

Evan: Right. 

Evan Sohn: You know, I would sit down with CEOs and I would say to them, All right, where do you wanna be in a year? And they'd say, Well, in five years I wanna be a billion dollars. I'm like, That's great, but what do you want to do next? Like, what does next look like? And I think that the challenge that we have 

Evan: as companies is, you know, a 

Evan Sohn: manager who said like, a building isn't built starting with the penthouse, right? It start with 

Evan: the, 

Evan Sohn: the first floor or the second floor, or the third floor. That's how you build a building. You know, we wanna get to the top floor, but you don't get there immediately.

and I think companies are the same. You know, what do you gotta do next? What comes next? And we all wanna build that penthouse, but, you know, you gotta build a foundation and you really gotta get clarity on what comes next. And I think 

Evan: that 

Evan Sohn: when companies Sometimes make mistakes. It's that they've leap too quickly.

They went from A to C and A goes to B, and B goes to C, and C goes to D. 

Renata Bernarde: Yeah, no, I, I agree. , having been an executive in business transformation, it's sometimes hard to reengineer plans to reach the ultimate goals that companies are good at. Projecting. So, you know that 30 year plan, that 20 year plan, is usually easy to do, but operationalizing It can.

Evan: That's right. That's right. You know, I had a CEO a thousand years ago He would draw two circles on a line and go, See, I solved the problem . I'm like, That's not how you solve a problem. That's how you draw a solution. 

Renata Bernarde: Good point. Now you must have been, you know, very interesting throughout your career to work with Evan and then now you know, as CEO of a company that is at the cusp of change.

I mean, this is the interesting thing about your conversation, you are working with the employers and trying to identify solutions for them. I'm working with candidates. Educating them on how much has changed in the recruitment and selection of talent? Right. So the technology has increased exponentially, especially I believe during the lockdowns, in the pandemic, and it has now Gone up to all levels.

You know, I have had C level clients of mine who have had to do straight to camera interviews and, you know, used technology that was. You know, a few years ago, maybe four years ago, used to hire graduates. Right? Right. So that, that has now sort of really permeated the entire recruitment and selection process.

So that future of recruitment is where you are now, you're working with what do you think candidates will encounter now when they're looking for work that they have not seen before? Like if somebody has been in the same job for five years.

Yeah. And now they're like, Okay, there's a great resignation. Quiet, quitting. I want to change jobs as well. I want to hop on this. 

Evan: let's double click into this. So first off, let's look at some fundamental changes. So if I asked you five years ago, right, so now it's October, 2017, and you saw a candidate or an employee who was 31 years old and they had been at the same company for a decade, you would probably describe them as committed, loyal, steadfast, right?

Mm-hmm. . Now I prefer 22. How would you describe that person now? Risk averse, stale, not willing to change. So what's changed, right? The person hasn't changed that 31 year old's the same, 31 year old, five years later. But what's changed is that the availability of options as, employees, has never been greater.

I am jealous of the new crop of employees. I'm jealous. I'll give you another one. If you started a company, you saw a resume of someone that was at a company for six months and left, you would look at this person and go, Huh, Oh man, that's, red flag. Red flag. And if you interviewed them five years ago, they would say, Look at just wasn't a good fit.

You would say, Nah, red flag. Now you would probably say, You did a courageous thing. I left a job that was a good job, but I realized it wasn't a good fit for me, so I left in six months. What's changed? what's really changed is that the availability of jobs, certainly in the knowledge worker has never been greater.

You know, think about all the jobs that you never looked at cuz they were geographically undesirable. It doesn't exist anymore. You know, my first company when it was acquired, I was offered a good position in the company that acquired us, you know, da, da da. They wanted me to move to Atlanta. Not gonna happen.

No one would do that. Yeah. Right. and the point is, even companies that are forcing people back to the office, if they wanna work with you, they will figure out how to work with you. So the, challenge that employees have today is that the number of people applying the job, so the first thing we said is, Hey, you don't wanna be stale, you wanna be current, you wanna be exciting, you wanna have an exciting path.

Mm-hmm. . The second thing that's really changed is, you know, when I was a kid when you were applying for jobs, In 1990, right? You found really cool thick resume paper, You printed up your resume, you typed up your cover letter, and if you sent out 10 resumes, you were considered aggressive, 30 resumes.

You were considered crazy. I call it the Zappos effect, right? Applying for a job is like ordering shoes on Zapp. Who cares? Okay, click, click, click, click, click. And if I don't like it, I won't do it. And so There's so much noise now in the process that the challenge that your audience has is how do they rise above the noise?

That's really the challenge. There's so much noise. How do you rise above the noise? 

Renata Bernarde: Yeah, For the employer, the pool of candidates has expanded, right? So you can hire, like you said, geography it's not a barrier anymore. And you have all of these interesting people now educating themselves to be more courageous for their careers and apply for jobs more often and more regularly.

That's right. That's right. So you have all of that happening and then, For the candidate. How to rise above the crowd is so hard. I have clients in the United States, it doesn't happen so often here in Australia. It's a much smaller market. But I have clients at director level. For example, applying for a job in 300 people would have applied for that same job.

That's right. It's a lot of people for a senior position. So how, do you then stand out and, and you are also from an employer's perspective, looking at identifying those top 10 candidates, right? 

Evan: That's right. So, you know, the, the, the answer is be the top 10. Find a career, find a job where you are the top 10.

You know, that's the easiest one, Right? You know, when I would get calls, Oh, I'm being ghosted. I'm being ghosted. A company's hiring who they wanna. , right? Let's assume they're not stupid, right? Mm-hmm. , let's assume the employer for a moment isn't stupid, right? They wanna hire who they wanna hire. So why don't you figure out, you know, as a candidate, where are you gonna be the top 10?

go figure that out. Where are you gonna be the top 10? Now, maybe that's where the company, if you're, if you're, willing to work in an office, find a company that only wants people working in the office, cuz then that's easier, right? Don't go for the remote job cuz then you're competing against the world.

Go for the job where they want people coming in three days a week, et cetera. Mm-hmm. , right? Or, Hey, you know what? don't push your salary to a level that's ridiculous. Stick to a salary level that makes. 

Renata Bernarde: Yeah, it's sometimes even counterintuitive for the candidate to niche down, like what you're suggesting.

You know, I was having a conversation with a friend of mine over the weekend who's looking for a job, and he said, No, and, and I, on LinkedIn, you know, I expanded everything. So I said, I can do strategy, I can do hr, I can do finance, And I'm like, No, . That's actually ca the, because he wants to change jobs so badly.

Yeah. You know, he's spreading himself into different buckets. Whereas ideally what you want is to rank really high. And I explain to him the concept of algorithm and how. You know, you're gonna show up in a search if people are looking LinkedIn to scout, you know, great candidates for a sea level position.

And I am assuming that, you know, the same happens with an organization like if you're going to identify the top 10, right? That person need to look consistent on their resume, what they stand for and what they're good at needs to show up in a way. That is picked 

Evan: up. Well, let's separate out the passive candidate from the active candidate, right?

Cuz your audience are active candidates, right? Yeah. So here's a good statistic. In the US, 70% of all jobs are found through a referral, which includes a recruiter. So that means that if you apply on LinkedIn to a job, you have a 30% chance of getting it without doing anything. I hate those statistics.

Yeah, those statistics really, really. So what that means for your audience is pretend it's a customer, right? You're trying to get into a customer, you found a lead from a customer. Go, go target the lead. Find someone else at that customer. Find someone else at that company and say, Hey, my name is Evan Stone.

I applied to a job. Here is the link of what I applied to. you know, do you have 15 minutes to help me understand is this a good company for me or not? Or, I'd really love to pick your brain on some strategy. Here's the good news. People have more time now for these things. yes right. So I don't wanna hear from someone.

Hey Evan, what should I do next? Really? Like, why don't you tell me that, Oh, I actually emailed someone, you know, for a job. Would you mind looking at my resume and seeing if it's a good fit? And by the way, that's the question. Now, the question now, as your, you know, let's go back to the Zappos. The question's not about whether I like the shoe.

I clicked on all the shoes. I like. The question really is does it fit my foot properly? And that's why I'm clicking on everything. Because if I'm clicking on it, I wanna try 'em on. I wanna see if it fits. So there's no reason that your audience doesn't apply to every job they want, but reach out to people at those companies and go, Hey, am I gonna be a good fit for 

Renata Bernarde: this job?

 I agree. Yeah, no, that's absolutely right. And, doing that before applying can give you some intelligence that you wouldn't have before applying and doing it after you apply. If that's the case. Will give you some intelligence to help you during the job interview, so it's always a great idea. One thing that, you know, you, mentioned the zPo effect.

I'm gonna start using that in my fact, Zappos. I love that. Yeah. We, we don't have Zapps in Australia, but I'll, I'll understand what you mean. , I know what you mean, but what I think is really interesting, Evan, is I'm always trying to convince my clients not to self-select themselves out of opportu. , right? So if it fits 50%, just go for it.

Don't self-select yourself out. Try for everything and use the recruitment and selection process to test out and look for red flags or green flags as you go through the process. You might fall in love with a company you hadn't thought of applying before, or you. All out of love with a company that you really wanted to apply for, but had a terrible experience in the recruitment process.

Evan: And here's the good news. 

The good news is that the expectation of your longevity at your next company, it's not there anymore. Yeah. Right. So don't worry, You know, let your shoulders down. Right. You know, this is your next opportunity, not your last opportunity. It's your next opportunity.

Yeah. You know, relax about it. Right. Find something that's interesting. Find something that's gonna be different. Overshoot. Right. So, you know, in other words, I am far more qualified for the role that I applied to, but I'd love to get into X and Y industry. Right? That's the industry I wanna get into.

I know I'm overqualified for it, but so what? 

Renata Bernarde: Yeah. that's, fantastic because the same way that you explained that you help companies get to that next step and the next step and the next step. That's how you can think about one's careers as well. You know, you may have a big goal. Out there, but you know, your next job doesn't need to be your dream job.

It's just your next job. So that's the same kinda sentiment 

Evan: for the, for the more entry level people. The recommendation that you're hearing now is really find an industry that you like. Right. So what do you want to be in? You wanna be in the music industry, You wanna be in the finance industry. You wanna be in the, the apparel industry.

 find an interesting area, like what industry do you like? And then get a job in that industry. It might not be the job that you want, but at least get into the industry that you like. If you're, if you're a salesperson, you're a marketing person, great. Don't just get, I want to be a marketer Find that industry that you're, you wanna be in education, great. Go into educational software, be a marketer and educational, whatever that is. Find an area that you could say, I'm really, really passionate about education. I'm really, really passionate about. fashion. I'm really, really passionate about music, right?

Evan: No one's really passionate about HR management, right? You know, you might like people, but always it makes more sense to tie a narrative around. That said, You know what I've always loved being in this industry. In fact, if you look at my resume, I've been doing that tangently, and I just want to go all in on that industry.

I love that industry. I want to be in 

that industry. 

Renata Bernarde: That makes sense. Evan, tell me something about this style of interviewing process that has started to become more and more prominent post pandemic. how are interviews now done? Because I'll tell you what, I have heard a lot of people especially in data science developers that are telling me they're not even interviewed.

They just go from application. Yeah. And I'd like to hear from you what you think the trend is for 2023 and beyond as how people are selected for opportunities? Yeah. 

Evan: So certainly on the technical side, you know, and the, problem is that so many people are applying to the same job. So how do you figure that?

You know the best way to think about this really is the universities, right. You know the school that I went to now has a hundred thousand people applying to that university every year to be a freshman has a hundred thousand applicants, of which they take 6,000. So, Wow. They can't do the same thing that they did.

40 years ago or 30 years ago, they, you know, they can't do the same thing, right? They have to have more people, they have to have some filtering. They, there, there're things that they have to do because they can't allocate the same time to a hundred thousand applicants that they did, you know in the 1980s where it might have been 20,000 applicants or 15,000, whatever that number is.

So there lies the challenge. , right? So I would say that if you're in a technical role, you're gonna be tested. It's just gonna be that way. And by the way, it's perfectly fine at the beginning of an interview process to say to the employer that you interview, What's your process?

What's your interview process? And by the way, really specific, what are you looking for that's a good fit. Tell me what you're looking for, you know? and look, I get cold upon, you know, for jobs. And I, I will often say, Look, I know why you're calling me, but this is not a good fit. I get why you think it is.

it's just not gonna be a good fit. So yeah, if you need someone interviewing the process, sure, I'll do it, but it's not gonna be a good fit. Yeah. So you gotta know what you're good at. You gotta know what you're not good at. And you know, if you're applying for a technical role, you better have your skills lined up.

Yeah. You really gotta have your skills lined up. And if you're not getting selected for a role because of a test, find out why. Hey, what was I missing? Right? what would you wanna see on my resume? that if it was there on my resume, you would go, Wow, that's the right. 


Renata Bernarde: Now that, you're right.

I love that, honesty that you've explained just now, I've had that experience in my life of people that have chosen me before for jobs. You know, I recruited that has chosen me before for a job. I called him a few years later for another job, and he said, No, it's not a good fit for you.

And that shocked me at first. But then I thought, you know what? he's saving me a lot of 

Evan: time . Right. Don't waste my time. Right. Just don't waste my. 

Renata Bernarde: Yeah. And that, was really good. And I like that honesty, but I know it can be a bit harsh, but, you know, it's better to use your energy for better offers out there and 

Evan: in mind, you know, that if it's not this job, it'll be a next job.

Right. Yeah. The movement, the opportunities now they're so voluminous. Yeah. Where there's so many opportunities now out there. So you don't get one, you'll get another. 

Renata Bernarde: Yeah. One thing that I have noticed that has happened a lot, especially with my clients in the US is the level of detail that the recruiters are sending candidates to help with their preparation.

There's really no excuse for you not to be prepared because there's just such great. Protocols in place to support people going through recruitment interaction. And 

Evan: look, you know, when I get pitched for companies that are pitching me, you know, they're trying to sell me something, if they don't do any research, tell me about

Really? Like really? You want me to tell you about it? Go online. Go check it out. Like, don't, just don't waste my time. So I, think as a, you know, that's the difference between just ordering shoes randomly and or ordering the shoes you want. Yes, 

Renata Bernarde: yes. No, that's absolutely right. I used to be the CEO of a foundation here in Australia, that's like Fulbright.

So it has scholarships and it's named after a person, It's named after a hero in Australia called John Monash. And the amount of people that would apply for a scholarship without knowing who John Monash was. that's so, you know, , you can't really receive a scholarship if you haven't done that research, so, Completely agree.

 You deal with employers, Evan, what are you finding are the. Trends in what they're looking for in general in candidates. You know, the culture has become such an important marketing piece for what we call employers marketing, you know, to keep and retain staff, you know, it's all about making people feel good about working in that organization.

What are you finding they are looking for when. Sort of scouring the, the candidate pool for, for great people. 

Evan: I, I think they're looking for someone who's a fit. Mm. And different companies are gonna have different criteria. Some companies want people that be in house. Some people want them to be remote.

Some people want hybrids. Some people want self starters. Some people want, you know, it really depends on the individual. It depends on the. 

 Yeah, no, that's true. I was thinking more about people that haven't really had the experience of working remotely and how tough it has been for them.

Renata Bernarde: Yeah. Once they start working remotely. You know, it's been really tough for some of my clients and people that I, I work with or subscribers do my newsletter to say, Look, I just don't know how to lead, you know, without seeing people. And I find that that has been, Part of a shock to some, candidates.

I wondered if that had kind of made Yeah. Not that I way into recruitment and selection, 

Evan: not that I know of, but I would say that, you know, I think companies are deciding whether they wanna be learning organizations or not, right? So if I'm running a remote sales organization, I want a sales leader who knows how to run.

A remote sales organization. If I'm running a marketing organization and has to be remote, I want someone who knows how to run a remote marketing organization. I don't wanna hire someone that's never run a remote marketing organization and see if it's a fit or not. Yeah. I, I don't wanna do that.

And I think companies are deciding what culture they want and aligning the people with that. So, you know, if I want a sneaker, I'm not gonna order a shoe. 

Renata Bernarde: Yeah. Evan, what's, the future of recruitment? When you think about recruitment 10 years from now? Yeah. What, how do you see it happening? How do you see candidates being selected?

I mentioned to you, I used to Be the CEO of a foundation. And back then we were so challenged by the way that we ran the selection process. You know, it was very formal and old fashioned and Right. And it it, you know, a huge panel with lots of fancy people on it, you know, selecting the candidates. And you mentioned just now, you know, the changes to the university selection process.

Will, will that just keep on growing and, and make things more and more automated in the future? Is that how you see it happening? So, so here's 

Evan: the interesting thing. The interesting thing is that, Regardless of how automated we've become as a society, right? I go online, I order flight tickets. I don't go a travel agent anymore, right?

I go online to book a hotel. I don't call up a hotel operator. I go online to buy a stock. I don't have to call a broker anymore. The reality is, no one's walking into a business today without actually speaking to somebody. We all have to sort of come to grips with the fact that there are gonna be a few realities.

No one is walking into a restaurant to be a waiter at a restaurant without actually speaking to somebody. It's just not happening. Yeah. So that means that there has to be a human interaction at the end of that hiring process. So the question is, when does it happen and how often does it happen? So I think the future of recruiting is that it's gonna be happening a lot more frequently because people are gonna be moving around than ever before.

We're gonna rely on our tools and automation to help filter the process, interview people you know, get all the data together, test people, make sure they're aligned. But at the end of the day here, I'm gonna wanna meet you and say, Yes, you're the right person for this role. Come on in. Mm-hmm. . Now I think the other thing that's gonna happen, Is that the speed of which this happens is also gonna be expedited.

We're not gonna spend three months trying to hire someone again. Edge cases aside. We're not gonna spend three months to hire someone who might only last for six to nine months. We're gonna be moving it around much, much, much faster. So the old school way of saying, Well, you gotta meet with Steve, and Steve is out next week, and so let's make sure Steve should be on the calendar for a week from tomorrow.

Steve comes back and now you gotta meet with Mary. And Mary's like, We're gonna try to, that process has to get expedited and we gotta be moving things much, much, much faster. Because the more people getting hired than ever before, not just more people quitting, the more people that are getting hired.

Yeah. And we have to move that process around as fast as possible. 

Renata Bernarde: Oh, Evan, what you have described is exactly what's happening at the moment with my clients. You know, the amount of time spent in the recruitment and selection of candidates and additional steps that are included, you know, Oh, now, now you have to meet with somebody else and now you have to meet to somebody else.

And then at the end, You know, from some of my clients who don't get the job. So it add to the frustration for the candidate pool and I'm assuming it's a huge cost for the 

Evan: company. Yeah. And what the company has to recognize is that the day that I apply for a job is the same day that I apply to four other jobs.

So if you are not, if you want the best talent and you are considering me the best talent, if you're not moving quick enough, you're gonna lose me to someone else. I think that's just a recognition on both sides of the both sides of it, that these are really just gonna be moving much, much, much faster.

Renata Bernarde: Yeah. No, I hope so. For everyone's sake, do you have any, like, I ran out of questions for you, Evan. You've been so totally. I feel like I can get this conversation and cut it into, you know, one minute wisdom nuggets from you. Oh, great. There's so much content there that will help. Well, thank you.

But do you have any last advice or any final tips you want to offer? 

Evan: Yeah. Everyone in this world is more valuable today than they were five years ago. From the factory worker to the restaurant worker to the Java developer, The question is, who you more valuable to and go find that person that you're more valuable to.

At the same time, our priorities have really changed. You know, I grew up in a world where money solves all problems. It doesn't. People want work life balance and all the other, all the other things that come with a balanced work life. And so figure out who you are and then find a job that aligns with those roles.

This has been a pleasure. Looking forward to chatting in a couple of months and let's see 

Renata Bernarde: how we do. Thank you so much, Evan. I'll keep in touch with you. Thanks for your time. Cheers. Bye-bye. Bye.



everyone, I hope that you have enjoyed this conversation as much as I did. Please don't forget to check my website, ranata be That's R E N A T A B E R N A R D E. Dot com to learn more about my career services and download the free job search schedule to help you set up your plans in place.

You can also sign up for my weekly newsletter so that you never miss a new episode of this podcast and get news and extra advice from me. Remember to subscribe to this podcast wherever you found us, and thank you so much for listening. Until next time.


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