Transcript #105. Understanding the role of chairperson: Part 2 interview with Moana Weir, Chair of the Victorian Equal Opportunity and Human Rights Commission.

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Speaker 1: (37:47)

Now, Moana, you are chair. Yes. What's the difference between being an executive director and the chair?

 

Speaker 2: (37:55)

Yeah, there's quite a big difference. And I think it's really interesting because when you're a director of a board, you know, it's very collegiate, um, it's very collaborative. Um, you're part of a collective, uh, and it's that dynamic is very different to your executive career and your executive dynamic on an executive team. Although, of course, um, you know, you come from, um, collaborative, hopefully, um, very collaborative, um, dynamic, uh, on the executive side as well. It's just a very different, um, uh, it's a very different dynamic because the decisions of the board, uh, collective. Actually, even if you disagreed, um, with a particular decision, ultimately, that will end up being the decision of the board. And then it's your, you know, that is your position as well. Um, so, uh, stepping from being a director to being a chair, uh, is very different in the sense that, you know, the analogy that was given to me and which I, I have found to be most accurate is that you have your conductor of an orchestra, um, as a chair.

 

Speaker 2: (39:02)

And you know, what you're really trying to do is to seek, to leverage the strengths of your board. Um, you're seeking to make sure that you hear from everybody, um, you know, you have, uh, an equal contribution, uh, from, from directors and that no particular directors are really carrying much more of the load, um, than others. Uh, and, um, uh, you know, and I think you're also trying to make sure that the collective is in harmony, um, to, to the degree, um, you know, that that's sort of practicable because of course you also want to have, um, the voices in the boardroom, which are challenging and the voices in the boardroom, which, um, sort of make you think about different perspectives. Um, so, you know, so it is that sort of balancing act, I, something that I have found, which was interesting and maybe interesting for your listeners is, you know, the, the chair role is not, um, the same as being a CEO in terms of that sort of explicit positional power.

 

Speaker 2: (40:01)

Um, it's a role that you really need to step into, um, the authority, um, of that, that role, um, much more intentionally in my experience than, than when you're, you know, the CEO in this, there's kind of an explicit understanding of the sort of positional authority of that role. Um, you know, when you're the chair, and you've, you've been a director, and so you've all you've been involved in that sort of collaborative collective, um, when you, you become the chair, it's actually, um, it's a moment where you need to adjust to your new role and sort of step much more intentionally into that, um, into that position.

 

Speaker 1: (40:40)

Uh, is there a lot of, um, forward-thinking about the composition of future board members and succession planning for you? Are you, are you also thinking about forecasting and sort of risk managing those situations?

 

Speaker 2: (40:56)

Uh, yes. So we have a board skills matrix, um, as you know, many, if not most, boards have now. And so that's, that's a very good way to think about, you know, the skills that are needed. Um, and we're also very explicit. I mean, I'm chair of the equal opportunity and human rights commission. So as you'd expect, we're very explicit about the personal attributes, um, and trying to ensure that we reflect the diversity in the community, um, in, you know, sort of diversity on the board as well. So, um, so are there, there are those requirements, uh, and, and issues we think about as well.

 

Speaker 1: (41:33)

And with all of that experience, I'm very fascinated with the decision-making at the board member and the agenda. That's sort of the culture. It's almost like the the way that the organization sets up an agenda for board meetings reflects the culture of that organization in a way.

 

Speaker 2: (41:52)

Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. Um, uh,

 

Speaker 1: (41:56)

That's the agenda for you? You know, how do you, like as a chair now, what do you think is your, um, the agenda that works best for your style of leadership?

 

Speaker 2: (42:07)

Yeah, so, um, so it's been a sort of organic process of, excuse me, working out what has worked best. Um, we always have a in-camera sort of board discussion at the start of every, uh, board meeting, um, which has been really helpful. So it's, it's a board that doesn't meet that often. It's sort of once every two months, and quite a lot may have happened, um, between board meetings. Uh, so it gives me an opportunity to sort of update directors if, if I haven't spoken to them, um, about particular issues between meetings. Um, but also just to get, to get a gauge of how directors are feeling about what's on the agenda, you know, what the content of the papers, um, and, uh, it gives me an opportunity to sort of guide the meeting appropriately. So, uh, if I get a sense that there is a particular issue, and I, I generally will have this sense before I have this conversation, but if I get a sense that there is a particular discussion where we need to spend more time, um, uh, you know, then I can guide the meeting, um, in that way.

 

Speaker 2: (43:11)

Um, and so we then also have, so I give a directors, uh, sorry, chairs update, and the commissioner who's, the CEO equivalent, um, gives a, uh, commissioner update. And that's an opportunity for particularly the commissioner to speak in a sort of less transactional way, a much more strategic way about sort of what's really on her mind. Um, and, uh, it just makes sure that we can, uh, direct the conversation to cover those sorts of areas because, um, you know, we also have the rotating, uh, agenda items, which ensure that we cover off all the board business that we, we need to do from a governance oversight perspective annually. Um, but we don't want to be so tied to that, that we don't get to the real issues, um, which are really keeping the commissioner up at night, um, is my view. So, so that's why we've sort of landed on, on that, um, approach.

 

Speaker 1: (44:11)

And how, how do you think is the best way to operate, uh, that relationship with the CEO, the chair, and the CEO? Is it very frequent or is it very hands-off?

 

Speaker 2: (44:22)

Um, so we speak very often, um, uh, and, you know, during the pandemic, um, the commission never has busier, uh. I think that's probably the case of many organizations, uh, and we have had, so last year we had monthly updates for the board, and it was particularly to hear about the response to the pandemic, um, and just the healthy, the health and safety and wellbeing of the team. Um, and you know, those, those are things that we weave into our normal board meetings this year, but last year, in particular, was quite an intense period for the commission. And, uh, we did need those frequent board updates. And in addition, I spoke to the commissioner very frequently, so I would speak to the commissioner weekly, um, and, uh, on an exceptions basis. So if there are things that, um, she thinks need to come to my attention, or I, I think there are things I need to flag with her, we, we will catch up. Um, and so I think, you know, it is dependent again on the nature of the organization and what are the issues that you're dealing with at that time. Um, uh, you know, at the moment, there's a lot of human rights issues, um, which are, which are resonating with the community. Um, and so, uh, you know, we, we do speak quite frequently.

 

Speaker 1: (45:42)

Okay. I'd love to, um, almost, uh, change gears a little bit. Now, if you have time and talk about the work of the Victoria equal opportunity and human rights commission, um, tell the listeners about the work that they do, and you do, and is, are there, is this, is it common for states and territories and countries to have equal opportunity and human rights commission? I'm trying to find the counterparts everywhere. So people that are listening overseas would can then relate their countries to equivalent commissions or institutions.

 

Speaker 2: (46:19)

Yeah. So in Australia, um, there are other states, um, organisations or commissions, which are equivalent to, to us, um, not, not exactly the same because, um, uh, just a bit because of the statutory, uh, you know, environment differs state to state. So in Victoria, we have three pieces of legislation, uh, which informed the work of the commission and vehicle opportunity act, the racial and religious tolerance act and the human rights charter, um, and in different states, there are different sort of statutory, um, uh, environments, um, at the federal level, we also have an Australian human rights commission at the federal level. Um, and so that's really the layout in Australia, I think in other organization, uh, sorry, in other countries internationally, um, you know, in some countries there are sort of equivalent state, um, uh, organisations, um, with a federal and overarching federal structure in some countries it's just the federal, um, sort of structure, but it very much depends, I think on, um, you know, the history of those countries and, um, you know, the way they've responded to various human rights issues that have, um, come up. So it's quite contextual. Um, but I think, you know, in Australia, um, we're quite well served, uh, in that way. And certainly in Victoria, um,

 

Speaker 1: (47:47)

The Victorian one, what an honour because I don't know if it's because I live here, but it seems to me that it leads the way,

 

Speaker 2: (47:54)

Uh, in terms of

 

Speaker 1: (47:56)

The work that they do in the human rights charter. Was it, was it, was it the first charter at the state level?

 

Speaker 2: (48:06)

Yes, yes, yes, that's right. Um, uh, hope hadn't got that wrong, but yes, no, I believe that's

 

Speaker 1: (48:12)

To being governance. So I remember having to adapt a lot of things once it came out.

 

Speaker 2: (48:17)

Yes. And yeah, look, um, obviously we're very proud of every Victorian, um, commission and, um, the role of human rights in this state. Um, and, uh, you know, so the the role of the commission is really as a regulator. Um, but it's also as an educator. Um, and you know, some of the work that we're most proud of is the sort of systemic reviews, um, that the commission has conducted, um, which have really tried to identify and tackle systemic issues, uh, barriers to equal opportunities. So, uh, we've done a report and review with big poll, um, and we're working together with the ambulance, ambulance Victoria at the moment, um, uh, to sort of do work in those areas. And we're, we're particularly proud of that because I guess it's, um, you know, the role is regulator is very, is great in terms of enforcing the law and making sure that compliance, um, uh, is, is, uh, addressed, uh, in terms of equal opportunity, but it's, it's, um, you know, the opportunity to really impact the community, um, positively extends beyond that, to address the systemic issues and really embedding, um, the right culture, uh, in organizations in the border community.

 

Speaker 1: (49:41)

I'm not surprised that they chose you as a chair because you have such great corporate experience and board experience prior to taking on a chair role with the Victorian equal opportunity and human rights commission. But do you also feel like you have experienced dealing with equal opportunity throughout your life that you had that lived experience that you could then, and is that needed at the board level?

 

Speaker 2: (50:09)

Uh, I think it's helpful. Um, yeah, so I, uh, so, uh, my cultural background is that I was born in Tonga and, um, we came to Australia when I was three, um, and, uh, you know, and actually in my corporate life and in executive life, I have run, um, you know, sort of equality, um, diversity and inclusion programs. And, uh, I think that is really helpful. Um, both having lived experience, um, but also, um, having actually experienced, uh, in the corporate, uh, environment, uh, or in any environment actually, um, you know, trying to, to sort of run these programs and, and China to, to work through what works practically, um, in effecting change in this area. So, yeah, I think those things were certainly really helpful.

 

Speaker 1: (51:00)

And what does it mean to have that equal opportunity, uh, in the workplace, if we're talking about the workplace and not, not in general, what do you think are the key issues for 20, 21, and beyond?

 

Speaker 2: (51:12)

Um, yeah, so I, um, I think, uh, you know, there's been a bit of reckoning hasn't there, um, over the pandemic, and we've had the me to movement, um, uh, in Australia, you know, we've had Brittany Higgins, um, uh, growth team, um, sort of led, um, uh, development for the development of that movement, particularly Australian context. Um, we've also had the black lives matter movement. Um, you know, there has, it has felt like a tipping point, um, in various, uh, human rights areas has been struck. Uh, and I think sort of largely in response actually to, um, this global pandemic and this removal of a psychological safety net for all of us. Um, and, um, this realization that perhaps there are parts of, of, um, our world and our culture, which, which could be better. Um, uh, so, you know, I think it's, um, you know, these issues absolutely impact us in Victoria as they have, um, globally, uh, you know, I think religious, um, uh, tolerance and religious faith, um, based issues have had a lot of prominence in Victoria. Um, we have the change of suppression, um, legislation. That's something the commission is really gearing up to, um, you know, to, to help, uh, implement, um, uh, and, uh, very rightly so, um, from my personal opinion, um, you know, bringing that real focus to, um, sort of addressing, um, those sorts of, uh, social equity, uh, issues. Um,

 

Speaker 1: (52:56)

Well, what has the pandemic, what sort of layers have the pandemic added to the workload of the commission? I'm very curious to know what has been the biggest impact on equal opportunity and human rights as we go into lockdown and current any, and all of that. It'll be interesting to see what people are sort of feeling and how that's translating into work for you.

 

Speaker 2: (53:23)

Uh, yes. Uh, we did have an increase, unfortunately in compliance, uh, based on racial discrimination or, um, you know, and particularly early in the early days of the pandemic, there was real anti-Asian sentiment, um, expressing the community, which was really unfortunate, um, and, um, you know, had a, had a really terrible impact on those communities. Um, uh, so we have had, I suppose it's a bit of a change in profile of compliance, um, and an increase in compliance in particular areas, which have responded to developments, um, directly from the pandemic. Um, uh, more recently, you know, masks and vaccine mandates, um, have become issues for the community. Um, and so those are things that the commission, uh, is spending time focusing on as well. Um, uh, and I suppose just more generally, um, you know, there's the, um, fatigue, um, there's the uncertainty, there's the mental health impacts, um, of, of just this very, um, sort of extended period of dealing with lockdowns, um, and the pandemic public health response and, um, you know, the commission supporting multicultural communities, um, uh, you know, trying to ensure that, um, uh, we can support the Victorian government in terms of, um, resourcing resources, um, which are, uh, you know, um, inappropriate sort of languages and, um, and working together with, um, multicultural communities to, to really make sure that the messaging around public health responses, um, is appropriately, um, frightened.

 

Speaker 1: (55:11)

I'm very interested in the actual work of the commission in terms of it macro level and micro level. So if anyone is experiencing an equity or has been harassed, or there's an issue in the workplace, they can come to the commission and lodge a complaint, is that correct?

 

Speaker 2: (55:31)

They can. So the way the equal opportunity act works is there are a list of protected attributes. Um, and they cover things like, um, uh, you know, religion, um, LGBTQ, uh, gender, sexuality, um, uh, you know, age disability. So, um, there are lists of, uh, protected attributes and, um, particularly in the areas of employment and provision of goods and services, um, you know, they offer an avenue for people, uh, who if they have a complaint or dispute, um, uh, can bring that matter to the commission.

 

Speaker 1: (56:09)

Once the complaint is made.

 

Speaker 2: (56:11)

Uh, yeah. So now, now I, um, won't be at all as well, qualified to speak to this as, um, our very talented commission team, but they bring the matter to the commission and they, um, you know, that they will a member of our dispute resolution team, uh, look at the complaint and, um, and then facilitate a conversation. Um, and, you know, if the grounds are there under the, yet they might facilitate, um, you know, a mediation with the other side, um, and really sort of conduct, um, a facilitated process, uh, to try and reach a resolution.

 

Speaker 1: (56:49)

And then, on the other hand, the commission also has this macro sort of, um, influence on policy and with its recommendations and reports, right? So it's working at the macro level. What are the key issues now in equal opportunity and human rights in the world? I mean, if you had to, you know, choose a few, well, would you say, uh, the most important issues for us to think about? And so,

 

Speaker 2: (57:21)

Yeah, well, there's so many religions and

 

Speaker 2: (57:28)

So many, I look, um, uh, and, you know, and it's not just within the purview of the commission, of course, we've got some great other commissioners, um, even in the Victorian context, uh, and other organisations that are also at the forefront of this work, but, um, you know, certainly gender inequality. Um, and I guess I'm thinking of the impacts of the pandemic and, you know, where they have been particularly felt. So certainly gender inequality, um, is still, um, on the high, on the list. Uh, racial inequality is high on the list of our first nations, um, uh, communities and our response, you know, our public health response, um, in that area. That's, that's very much top of mind, um, disability, um, still very much, uh, at the top of the list to end. Um, you know, I know certainly in prior years, um, the area of disability where we've had the most compliance, um, in terms of, um, community impacts, um, of discrimination, um, uh, and, you know, religion, um, faith, um, you know, faith issues, I think that's, that's also been something that has been surfaced, um, uh, through the, the pandemic, uh, response.

 

Speaker 2: (58:44)

Um, uh, so look, yeah, I haven't really narrowed the list at all, um, and age, um, based discrimination. Um, you know,

 

Speaker 1: (58:54)

I'm glad you mentioned that because, you know, this podcast is listened to, by a lot of executives that are aging getting wiser and they, they do feel that in the recruitment and selection process. Yes. They, they do worry about the ages.

 

Speaker 2: (59:11)

Yes. And, um, you know, and I think, um, there was a port recently wasn't there, which was speaking to sort of attitudes. Um, and I think it was particularly in the sort of corporate space, but, um, you know, reflecting this attitude that, um, uh, you know, having a different, um, response to people, um, at the, you know, who, who are ageing, as you've said, um, uh, in the informant context is actually largely, you know, still prevalent, unfortunately. Um, so, so, you know, I, I will say, um, re nationally, I heard your interview with Carly and Alessandra, um, which was fantastic. I got a lot out of it, uh, and, um, really enjoyed that conversation. And, um, you know, you were talking about the sort of barriers, um, to their gender inequality. Um, but I think that applies, it can apply more broadly than this, but, you know, there's behavioural barriers, this sort of deep, um, and, uh, you know, sort of cultural conditioning and behavioural barriers.

 

Speaker 2: (01:00:18)

You know, these are the things that, um, in my experience, are very hard to identify, um, and very hard to, you know, fix as a result. Um, and I think it's, it's really, um, you know, one of the key reasons why there's no silver bullet, um, to, to really, um, you know, addressing any of these, um, factors in the workplace, because all of us are the product of that conditioning, and we may be very unconscious, um, that it's playing out in our decision-making. Um, and so, you know, I, I think age discrimination, um, it's largely hidden. Um, uh, and, you know, I think that's one of the areas where this sort of deeply ingrained, um, bias and behavioural, um, bias, uh, can really impact, unfortunately,

 

Speaker 1: (01:01:10)

To listen to an episode I did with the CEO of pitch me, which is a recruitment and selection platform, I believe a UK based but working globally. And she does not have any photos or videos or age or dates anywhere. And that's really to remove all of those, um, proxies that may lead people to make decisions based on their bias. And I asked her, you know, do you think you're going to move into video? And she said, no, possibly not. Well,

 

Speaker 2: (01:01:46)

I love the sound of that. I

 

Speaker 1: (01:01:48)

Was very surprised because so many people are moving into this sort of software video interviewing formats and, you know, doing analysis with AI or people's body, um, sort of the sort of the body language and applying to read those and identify them. So, so scary for some of my clients who don't smile that much. And it doesn't mean that they're bad people. Um, if you're interested that sort of thing, listeners, I will link below. I'm a recent book from Malcolm Gladwell on this issue of people make, make passing judgement on all this because of the way that they speak or say things and Malcolm Gladwell himself. If you see him on video, he was very plain and, you know, he doesn't have a lot of expressions, and he was interested from a personal perspective on the Asian, and he wrote a book about it. That's fascinating. Hmm.

 

Speaker 2: (01:02:48)

I'd be really interested. And you know that there is all that body of evidence. Now that AI is itself because, of course, it's written by humans is itself implicitly biassed. So, um, uh, you know, the way in which we're using AI is, you know, there's lots of, there's a body of evidence to support that now. So yeah, I'd be really interested in hearing that.

 

Speaker 1: (01:03:09)

Yes. So the sort of work that I do want to, it's been interesting because I don't like the structure that we have, but I have to teach people how to succeed with the rows of the game that are happening right now. So I often tell them, remember to use your hands and Julia Gillard's there that train, um, because especially now, so many of us are in lockdown and doing videos, uh, video interviews, it's, it's really fascinating to see very experienced executives, not showcase as actually presence on video because it's not the format that they're used to these boardroom meetings, you know, and, and, um, face to face meeting. So it's, it's that transition is, is hard on some people that doesn't mean that they are not going to perform at the job. Yes. Right. So it's, but it means that they need to get used to that, um, tool because it will be the leading tool of the future.

 

Speaker 1: (01:04:07)

They will probably be leading from a distance, and they will get need to get used and need to get better on video something to do. Um, before we go, I'd love to, oh, it's such a difficult topic, but we've spoken about this before. And you know, you have both this amazing corporate career where you may have experienced or felt this, and now you're at this chair level where you are, you know, receiving all of these complaints. And I'm wondering if it's coming to you, I'm, I'm a coach that deals with people in in-between chops, you know, they're in transition. Right. And of course, there's that grieving phase where they really are so sad about the fact that they left the jobs. I mean, some of them, not all, but many of my clients have been made redundant or left the jobs in circumstances that were beyond their control only to then a few weeks later realized that they hated it.

 

Speaker 1: (01:05:07)

And they were, where was that? Was that bullying, you know, was I, what was that now looking back, you know, and replay this week, we had a session, um, it was, uh, I do group coaching and, and we discussed this idea that we replay in our minds, things that have happened in the past. And we started to understand that that was not okay. And it could be that, that what we did was not okay, but most times it's wow. That, that the way that, that happened to me, that was not okay. Have you had that personal experience as well or thought, gosh, how did I cope with this for so long and didn't realize it wasn't okay. And what do you do about that? You know, once you do realize that something was deeply wrong?

 

Speaker 2: (01:06:01)

Yes. Um, it has happened to me, um, and I think it's probably a very re executive, um, who would say it's never happened to them. Um, so it has happened to me. I, um, I realized as it was happening, fortunately for me. Um, and, but I did something that I just would naturally always do. Um, and then since then I've done more reading and, and, um, sort of had more life experience and have realized that it actually is a very effective strategy. Um, and that was, I reached out to other, um, executives and, uh, you know, I, um, had very strong connections and relationships with other executives and, you know, I asked them, were they experiencing the same thing or was it just me? And because when this sort of behavior happens, what can happen as, as sort of one of the first responses is that you feel very isolated and you feel that it's potentially something to do with your performance.

 

Speaker 2: (01:07:01)

Um, and so, you know, for me, I mean, this was just a very natural response. Um, uh, it's something I'd always do, but it was very helpful. Um, and what I immediately heard and understood is that it was not just me. Um, you know, there were another, a number of other executives experiencing the same, um, sort of behavior and, um, the same responses. Um, and, you know, in that sort of, I suppose, Alliance, um, I mean, firstly, it just made me feel, it normalizes the experience for me. Um, and it made me feel that it wasn't just my performance and, um, it actually wasn't my performance. Um, uh, you know, as things beyond that. Um, but, uh, it also gave us all a bit of a platform to sort of collectively, um, uh, sort of change the dynamic and, um, improve the dynamic, um, for, for ourselves.

 

Speaker 2: (01:07:56)

Uh, so, uh, so yeah, but that, um, is probably the clear example I have in my mind when you asked me, um, have I experienced behavior like that. Um, and so in terms of being able to reflect on it and, um, you know, how I would behave if it ever happens again, um, you know, I probably would do something similar and I would probably give advice to other executives to do something similar. And I think also, um, you know, that curiosity piece again, I think reading widely and, um, and actually trying to understand what is happening, um, uh, you know, trying to sort of intellectually, um, I'm someone that, you know, that appeals to trying to, to actually, um, sort of understanding in your rational mind and not just your emotional, um, at a real emotional response level, you know, what, what is happening and, and, um, can I identify, um, this behavior and is it that sort of corporate, um, uh, you know, um, misbehavior, um, you know, that I've heard of previously is it at that level? Um, but I think those things are helpful.

 

Speaker 1: (01:09:08)

It's funny, you mentioned that because I love books like that. And I often recommend the no rule, which has been rewritten several times and it's getting better and better. And there's another one called working with monsters from an actor from Sydney. And at the time, this is a long time ago and I, my manager was a total monster and I was talking about this book to some colleagues that the kitchen in the kitchen, because I was a research officer. So it was part of my research to read about this. I was told to read it and she definitely thought I was talking about her, she called me in the office. It's like, I really don't like the way that, no, no,

 

Speaker 2: (01:09:51)

It's not that

 

Speaker 1: (01:09:52)

This was the research that we're doing small than health. Um, and it was really funny. Um, but yeah, so they are great books out there. And this, this, uh, working with monsters is really, well-researched an excellent Australian book. So if you're interested, I'll put a link below anyone who's listening and wants to read it. Marta, do you think now your career will be a portfolio one and you are going to get more boards and enter roles. Is that what you see happening for you? Uh,

 

Speaker 2: (01:10:25)

Look, I'm open I'm Renata. I am open to an executive, you know, another full-time executive role, um, and to potentially sort of, um, moving into, uh, the sort of for-profit, uh, listed company space for directorships, uh, at the same time, um, or, um, uh, you know, moving to more of a portfolio mix. Um, but, uh, you know, I have clear in my mind the sorts of organisations I'm, um, you know, that play to my strengths and, um, where I feel, um, you know, I can add the most value. Uh, and so I've got that sort of guiding your guiding light, um, in mind and, and I'll see, you know, what's, what's out in the market, but, um, it feels like it's quite buoyant, um, some interesting opportunities. So I'm trying to keep an open mind.

 

Speaker 1: (01:11:17)

Excellent. I wish you all the best I'm here for you if you need any help. Thank you. Don't forget to give me a call. I'd love to support you. Uh, I'd love when you're doing that due diligence and you're asking people what they think, you know, that's a good sign to give me a call.

 

Speaker 2: (01:11:33)

I'd love to look. I did. I wanted to say at some point in this conversation, and I haven't said that I've just realized that I'm one of the game changers for me, um, as an executive. Um, and I think, you know, one of the most impactful, uh, learnings for me has been to understand that I'm really managing my energy my time. Uh, and you know, if you think about things in that framework, it really does change things. Um, and you know, it comes back to this, this question we've been exploring about how do you balance an executive and an executive career because, you know, let's face it sometimes. Um, it's a pretty big burden you've got, um, you're managing there and things sort of are requiring you to dial it up in the nonexecutive space at the same time, as you're being asked to dial things up in the executive space. And that can, that can be quite a lot to take on. But, um, but I think if you, if you're thinking about your, you know, your life and your career in terms of managing your energy and, um, what you've taken on in the non-executive space whilst you're still an executive gives you energy, um, then you know, that's, that's a very different way to think about things and to think about taking on opportunities that come your way. Um,

 

Speaker 1: (01:12:52)

I love that. I love that you're mentioning it a few weeks back there. I will link below as well. There's an episode about it. You know, what most successful people have in common, it's that very good understanding of time. It's all about time and having the time for the right things or the right things to you, what it means to you to be successful, what it means to you to invest time into something. And that's so important. And I, I think you're very good time manager had those amazing breaks going to Paris coming back, having time out, um, to go traveling with your son. I mean, a lot of people go through their careers as if they were running a marathon nonstop. Yeah.

 

Speaker 2: (01:13:40)

10, I think it's well, I think so. And I think it's, you know, um, understanding non-negotiables, and I think it's also actually valuing your own emotional and physical health, um, because if you, unless you have that, you know, it very difficult to lead other people, um, to make sure that they can achieve their potential and also maximize their own, um, energy. Um, so, you know, I think, and, you know, I certainly have not always had that. That is something I've had to learn, um, over my career. And I've, um, I've certainly, um, uh, you know, sort of over-committed, um, on the time front, um, and not understood, um, how best to manage my energy. That's something that's come later in my career, but, um, it has been a game-changer for me. So I wanted to mention it because I think, um, it just gives you a different, a lot of the time you might look at what you've got in your plate, and you might think I'm going to take out those things because it's taking up too much time. But if you think about what actually gives you energy, um, you know, it might be those things that you're looking at chopping out, like catching up with your family and your friends, you know, those sorts of things, which are actually essential to your wellbeing, not the things to top out. Um,

 

Speaker 1: (01:14:55)

Yeah. Well, thank you so much. Once again, wishing you all the best and you can eventually catch up in person that will,

 

Speaker 2: (01:15:03)

That will be really lovely. Yes, absolutely.

 

Speaker 1: (01:15:05)

All right. I'll let you know when the episode is out, it will be in a couple of weeks. Okay, great. I'm taking two weeks to,

 

Speaker 2: (01:15:17)

To do anything before. Of course.

 

Speaker 1: (01:15:18)

I just, I'm just thinking, you know, my son just told me I need to watch Ted Lawson.

 

Speaker 2: (01:15:26)

Oh, yes. I've heard that too. Yeah,

 

Speaker 1: (01:15:30)

I get it. I'm a big science fiction fan. So I'm thinking of rereading foundations from SMO. Cause there's a show now.


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