Renata: I'd love to start with you telling everyone about your career and telling us, you know, about your background and how you ended up where you are today.
Moana: Yeah, sure. So I,uh, I started law,outflow at Monash university and,I did my honours thesis in copyright law because I've always had an interest,in that I like writing.and so,as a result, when I went and did my articles, so I ended up in a couple of sort of large top tier firms. And,I ended up in the IP area,and in the it area,in those couple of firms, so Minter Ellison, and,and then after Rob's, as it then was so Ellen's,and that was in the nineties Renata and it coincided very nicely for me with the tech boom actually. And so,you know, I've spent a large part of my career in the tech sector and,largely because of this interest in IP.and it,but also because I became very interested,in the tech sector.
Speaker 2: (01:09)
Um, so after I lifted the firms, which is after about five years,I went in-house,and I started my in-house career at Coles Myer,as it then was,and which was a great,sort of,training ground for me. And I was in the it area in particular.and from there, I went to my first GC and executive role,at Melbourne it,which is listed,was a listed company at that time.and,started there,ended up there for about five years and,sort of expanded my remit to cover company secretarial risk,sustainability, corporate communications, and also did some M and a,which I enjoyed,and ended up in the sort of integration of the businesses that we acquired, which I also really enjoyed.and,at the end of my time at Melbourne, it, I went and lived in Paris, believe it or not for a year.
Speaker 2: (02:12)
Um, my, my then partner,uh, who's in environmental research science,received a posting,to Paris. And,so I went there,and so did some contract work for Melbourne. It,but mostly I had a break for just under a year, which was wonderful.tried some writing and,uh, and,came back,quite refreshed from that,and keen to stay in the tech sector.and so my next role, my next two roles was again in the tech sector. So with REA,which has real estate.com and seek,so five years each,and covering the same sorts of, of areas.as at Melbourne, I'd say, I should say at the end of Melbourne, it, I ran a small business division. So it was one of the businesses where the quiet,and it sort of organically came from the fact that I was on the integration side, but I was also very interested in that business.
Speaker 2: (03:12)
So,uh, so that, that was great. REA and Sikh were fantastic. I did a lot of M and a,at REA and,uh, it was sort of tangentially involved in that it's like,so yeah, so really spent 15 years in the high-growth listed sort of tech,sector.and,from there I actually moved into health.uh, and I went to Booper,for three years and I did a range of roles there as well, which, which I really enjoyed.so started as regulatory director,and then moved to become a strategic sort of business lead for,a project strategy project we were doing with Bupa dental,and then became MD acting MD for that business.uh, for,actually it ended up being a sort of officially, it was around six months,unofficially.
Speaker 2: (04:11)
It was more than more than that,really enjoyed that role.and obviously,it's a healthcare provider, so very different,type of business operationally to the sorts of businesses I come from. So great experience for me,really enjoyed it.and, and then at Bupa, I also ended up as acting corporate affairs director,after that role. So a very challenging role,uh, but very stimulating, I learnt a huge amount.and,you know, after, after that, I, which was a very intense period, I should say as well, the two years when I was,you know, acting MD and acting corporate affairs director,decided to take a break.I thought I'd have a year off the year ended March last year.and as it turned out, not a great time to really be looking for any role March last year,as we all know,so,so actually like quite a few people that I speak to,you know, I had to change my plan.
Speaker 2: (05:16)
Um, and,we ended up,at our, we've got a very lucky have a,a beach house down on the Mornington peninsula. And,we ended up living there,last year,because my son was online schooling and,you know, I mean, they've got great internet access there.and,you know, I,took on a role the September last year,an interim contract role with,Victorian land registry services as head of legal,company secretarial and risk,and finished that up,just a few weeks ago. So it was a year,term and,and that's where I am now in terms of the executive career,non-executive career, I've been doing,board roles around 10, 10 years in the sort of not-for-profit government and community sector.so I started on the school board.then I moved to,sorry, at the same time, I took on a role at beeline,uh, as a director for three years. And,I am on the very awkward, so the Victorian equal opportunity and human rights commission board,the chair there,I've been there for about six and a half years and chair for nearly five,and recently joined the people in culture committee at Movember,which is a,fantastic global charity.
Speaker 1: (06:45)
Yes, I have so many questions for you. I thought we were going to start, start with the board roles, but I have so many questions about your career progression, as you were telling us the story. I identified some opportunities that were very much not what I had thought for you, like the corporate affairs role and you running the business at regroup. What think were the strengths that you show that those times that made you take on those promotions and made people think of you for those opportunities that were outside? I mean, from sorry, from an external perspective, it doesn't look like the linear roles that I would imagine.
Speaker 2: (07:28)
I,I was actually a small business division at the Melbourne it, but,I was actually asked to run a business,at REA and,didn't take up the opportunity at the time for various reasons, but I look, I think,yeah, I, I definitely think I, I was listening to some of your podcasts,Renata, and you reminded me of that missing 33% Ted talk by Susan.is it common?
Speaker 1: (07:58)
I don't know how to pronounce it. I call Antoine or I'm Susan, if you're listening, which she does. Let's talk later. Yes, I see. It's a very kind of Italian a colon to honour My best effort.
Speaker 2: (08:12)
Yes.look, I, I was reminded to go back and visit that I had seen that to talk some years ago.but you know, when I watch
Speaker 1: (08:23)
Speaker 2: (08:23)
Times, yeah, it's brilliant, but actually it's so interesting. It resonated so much more for me this time. I don't know why that is. It's probably because I've done so much more,you know, I've done so many more executive roles since I first watched it, but, you know, I just think it's so accurate.you know, the fact that,and it's a particularly sort of female gender thing that no one tells you that,you know, this business strategic and financial sort of commercial acumen is absolutely your tickets play.and particularly when you're in obviously the corporate space and the listed company space. And I think,for me, you know, it's, it's having curiosity,about the broader business and where the part of the business that you run fits in that broader context. And,having the ability to properly understand your stakeholders in that business, you cannot do any of that.
Speaker 2: (09:20)
Um, unless you understand the business and you understand the drivers, and you're curious about how it all fits in and, you know, what is, what is the context in which you operate? So I definitely think it's that sort of curiosity.and,you know, the ability to really,work with the stakeholders to understand that broader context,which, you know, I think sort of singles you out,as someone who could move across across functions and also to ultimately run a business division. So the role I'm running, you know, the interim role running the Booper dental business was not something I would have thought to put my hand up for.I was very fortunate to have a,a fantastic sponsor,in the head of that business,who suggested to me that I should put my hat in the ring,for the role and,you know, I think for sure,it, it would have been,partially because,as the strategic business lead leader, you know, very much taken an interest in the broader business.and so, so I can say it is absolutely one, one of the factors, but I also think,you know, there's lots of things I think being ready to take a risk and back yourself,to take a risk of considered risk,you know,and,and I guess to be ready when opportunity, when there's opportunity to actually,be ready,to take that on and
Speaker 1: (10:54)
To know it is an opportunity and to identify
Speaker 2: (10:56)
To, so, yes, I think so. I mean, that takes some courage because, you know, I'd never run that that was a 500 million revenue business, you know, I'd certainly never run a business of that scale. And I'd only once sort of previously run a business, but I had had lots of general sort of executives,experience and through the strategic project, we'd worked on, had a real understanding of the business.so,yeah, I, I think, you know, those are the, yeah,
Speaker 1: (11:27)
I'm also interested. I mean, you may not have realised this, maybe you do, but the fact that you have had such a rich career with lots of different experiences and living overseas and all of that really does prepare one for VOCA situations. Like the one we were currently going through and, you know, ending up in March and thinking, gosh, what do I do now? This is so complex, you know, because you used to the complexity of looking for work or moving from job to job. And you've done that very well.I mean, I'm sure there were bumps along the way, but, you know, I can see how the career progression has happened for you in a very positive way. I love the fact that you took breaks. Can you tell us the why you made those decisions and was it difficult for you? Was there a little bit of an anxiety behind, oh my God, should I, should I not derail my career because especially, I mean, everybody feels like that, but especially women, you know, they take that really sort of seriously tell me how you made those decisions in France and then, you know, in 2019.
Speaker 2: (12:32)
Yeah. So,with the opportunity to live in Paris,so that was my, my,my then partner had this opportunity to go and do some work in Paris about climate research Institute.which of course we were both thrilled,by the prospect of that I did contemplate,potentially working for Melbourne. It, we had some overseas offices at that stage through the acquisitions we'd done.and I did have some conversations with them about doing that, but,I decided in the end just to take the break,and I did do a bit of contract work for Melbourne it during that time, but I, I just felt,you know, there had been my first executive role. I had really thrown myself into that,uh, you know, sort of body and soul Renata,you know, I was actually quite tired.
Speaker 2: (13:26)
Um, and I just thought this is an opportunity to, to live in France,actually to try and learn French,to write, which was something I'd always sort of aspired to have an opportunity to do. And,I just could tell I needed a break.and so I was a bit nervous about that. I was a bit nervous about that. I was,you know, in my thirties and that's generally the time where you really want to,work pretty hard on your career, obviously.but,you know, I just felt it was better for me at that stage.just to have a break,
Speaker 1: (14:03)
When you came back to Australia, how long did it take for you to find a job?
Speaker 2: (14:08)
It was actually very quick.I found the REA role very quickly,and it was,they, they actually had,advertised somewhere and,and so I applied and,uh, yeah, was very lucky, but,I got that role. So I actually,yeah, I, I, it was actually very quick, um,
Speaker 1: (14:31)
And be able to feel like, you know, it will always happen that way and, you know, it will always be quick, but,I think people can take comfort in knowing that it's okay to take a break. You know, life is not going to end and your career will not do rail. If you decide you need to take time off, even if it's to stay in Melbourne at home, well, everything locked down, but it's so important. And I, I tried to tell this my clients all the time on, that's why I really wanted to hear your story because your brain functions differently when you're not under that stress. I'm a big fan of a bit of stress, you know, I think it's, it's good for your health.but that chronic ongoing stress that sort of adds up and piles up it eventually it will overflow. Yes. And it will, you know, it will happen in, in a way that's not healthy for you. So taking time off during your very long career working longer and longer hours, right. It's really great. And, you know, you did that again in 2019, was that different?
Speaker 2: (15:33)
Um, what was different? Cause I had my son,and you know, and he was 12 at the time. And of course,you know, we actually, in 2019 we did quite a bit of travel and,looking back, I'm so happy. I'm so happy that, that we did that because then it was not possible obviously in 2020, but,uh, you know, we did some travel together with my son, which was just wonderful. And,I did a screen like this course, I went to LA,uh,
Speaker 2: (16:04)
Well, you know, I've never sort of properly,given myself the time to do it, but I,I just have this interest in film. And,and so I did the screenwriters course. I went to LA and that was fantastic.and just really wanted to sort of replenish and,you know, use my brain in a different way.if I was going to have the break, I did think about, or should I do a sort of vacation related course?and there's some courses, you know, that I've always had in mind on that front, but I just thought, no, this is the time,to, to do what I would not ordinarily have a chance to do,in my executive life.and you know, I'm just going to feed myself.and it was, it was wonderful.
Speaker 1: (16:50)
Um, excellent. No, I, I really love that. And I'm also now, as you know, because we discussed this earlier, I'm very interested in your board appointments and how you're growing that portfolio and,how you've sort of worked weave that into your,operational roles, like doing that alongside as well, which is sometimes, you know, hard to do. So can you go back to how it actually started and maybe reference, would it happen like that again now? Have things changed, you know, since your first board appointment?
Speaker 2: (17:31)
Yes. So I,at the time I have my first board appointment, I,had been, I'm just trying to think. I had been a company secretary for some time and operated at that sort of executive level in that board context also as general counsel,for probably 10 years,before my first board role and I was approached to join a school board.it ended up being the school my son went to, but my son was only one at the time. So I was an independent,director when I joined. Um,
Speaker 1: (18:03)
Or was it a gate?
Speaker 2: (18:05)
It was a voluntary one. And,you know, I'd always had an interest at, well, I had an interest, it was obviously pretty adjacent to,my executive career and,and being in the education, it was appealing, you know, the purpose,uh, part of it was appealing. So,so that was my first board. And then,I was approached to join the V line board a few years after that. And,actually,yeah, not, not long after that. So actually I sort of had two board roles,within a short period of each other and,I'd done the ARCD course. So that was the other thing, which is the next day,
Speaker 1: (18:47)
The Australian Institute of company directors for those of you overseas, but they're equivalent,uh, training grounds for executives in every country. I am sure a lot of people in us and they do the Harvard one, but there are some other ones as other very good certification.
Speaker 2: (19:04)
Yes. And they're very good. And,you know, I, it actually helped me realise, I knew a lot more about it than I thought I did,having sort of operated in that space. And, uh,and so, you know, when the opportunities came up, I was, you know,relatively, uh,
Speaker 1: (19:24)
Speaker 2: (19:26)
And ready to take that on. So
Speaker 1: (19:30)
Came to you and offer you those opportunities with, were they professional network colleagues or were they like the mom who is, you know, who goes to the same kindergarten as your son? How did you, how did that happen for that first?
Speaker 2: (19:45)
Yeah, so the school one is just, is a very remains, a very close friend of mine and all her kids have gone through that school and she was, she was on the board,and she thought my skillset,would be helpful,for the school.so yes, it was through her. So that's a personal network. So,and with the other,uh, with the other opportunity yet that came through sort of personal network,and,well, personal and professional, I suppose, network
Speaker 1: (20:18)
The feeling, sorry to interrupt one. It was the feline advertised as well.
Speaker 2: (20:22)
Uh, it wasn't okay. Yep.but I must say,you know, to your point, I think this is what, what you're getting at Renata with those network connections, neither of those connections had been formed by me with any sort of agenda that one day they would end up in boards appointments. You know, they would simply, I had connections, I've formed connections with people,
Speaker 1: (20:50)
But your executive presence was showing through the regardless, you know, people knew what you did,for work. And,people focus so much on having a pitch and knowing what to say. And when, when in fact all they need to do is operate in the right circles. So if you're listening, you know, you have to attend events, you have to get out of your office and connect with people and not just at meetings, you know, at the water cooler, down at the coffee shop and let people get to know you, you don't need to ask them for anything. They just need to know who you are and what you do. And I guess over time, you know, very organically wanna, you have been doing that to some extent, even without having a set agenda.
Speaker 2: (21:38)
Yeah, I suppose that is true. And I do get some good advice pretty early in my career, which was never say no to a coffee.and I've never said no to a coffee and I've always got something out of it.and I hope have been able to give something back and I, you know,heard from other people speaking on your podcast about the importance of sponsors and mentors and guides, and I a hundred percent agree with that, but I would also say, make sure you are a sponsor and a mentor and a guide, and that you are intentionally, you know, trying to help people,and connect with people in that way.
Speaker 1: (22:16)
Yes, you're absolutely. Right. Have you either, have you ever had to apply for a boardroom? Have you had that experience of how that happens and, yeah.
Speaker 2: (22:25)
Um, so I,applied to, I recently joined the Movember,people and culture committee, and that was part of a recruitment process.I must say I heard about the process through,my network.but,yes, I was part of that recruitment process.
Speaker 1: (22:45)
Um, is it very competitive? Was it very, um,
Speaker 2: (22:49)
Yeah, it looked, it was run by an executive recruiter,and, you know, through a process that your listeners will be very familiar with. You know, I had to be, I had went through a number of interviews,and,you know, do my own due diligence,which I do with every, every board.and,and just, you know, through that process of,interviews got to know the culture of the board and,the sort of culture of the directors and,the organisation, and really very much thought it was a group sort of cultural fit for me and a fantastic fit on purpose.
Speaker 1: (23:27)
And did you find that the interviews and the way that you've done your resume was very similar to the way you would have applied for a previous role or sort of a senior exec role?
Speaker 2: (23:38)
Yes.I, I suppose I was careful with my CV,to, to really highlight the board,you know, the board experience.uh, but I also, I mean, it was just a version of my normal CBP, you know what I mean? But I, I just,uh,
Speaker 1: (23:56)
Yeah, I love that because I think people make so many excuses not to apply for boards, you know, saying, oh, I don't have the right CV. I haven't done a board CV yet.
Speaker 2: (24:07)
Yeah. I mean, you can surely it's good. There's fantastic. Both say based, but I think if you, if you just look at it in the way, you'd look at it for, in applying for any role and just think, well, what are the key things that I want the person reading this to, to focus on in respect as this role.and, and just look at it that way. I mean, that's how I approach it.
Speaker 1: (24:29)
I love that you did the due diligence, and I think it's important for every professional to do that before accepting an offer. And through that recruitment and selection process, it's so important to read the financials, to know what you're walking into. It doesn't have to be a board role, any role you're interviewing them in the same way that they're interviewing you
Speaker 2: (24:52)
Speaker 1: (24:53)
Sign on the dotted line, it's because you know, who and watch is hiring you. Right. Absolutely well done. And I mean, what, what is your usual process of doing a due diligence? I mean, you're a lawyer, so you probably do a much more thorough one than I, but I'm very thorough. I must say I have all these.
Speaker 2: (25:14)
Um, yeah, so I, of course I read what's available on the website of the organisation. I read annual reports. I read them quite carefully actually.so for the financials, but also,you know, as read the director's report very carefully.and,I look for, you know, how they're executing on the strategy.and I particularly look for sort of culture,what I think about culture and, and then I speak to a lot of people. So I try and speak to people within the organisation of course, but then also try and speak to people,who perhaps had been at the organisation and then left the organisation. That's a good way,to, to, you know, learn about,the culture and,the strategy,and,uh, you know, I, I suppose I, I really just try and interrogate the external information,to understand if that's reflected on the inside,
Speaker 1: (26:14)
Dying to ask you about what it is to be a chair, what sort of the difference. But I think I'm jumping up a step a bit. First of all, I'd love to ask you about being a director, especially because you've, you are, you have been a director while still being in an operational role and that rowing in steering, you know, it, that two leavers that you ha you have to switch on and off. And I have seen board members not able to switch up the row you lever, you know what I mean? Like your mom could be in Beverly, they want to get their hands dirty in the operational matters at time. Not really.they don't know where, where that line is. And I wonder if you experienced that or where were you always very aware of, you know, the difference between the two roles? Can you explain maybe to the listeners what the difference is? Yeah,
Speaker 2: (27:06)
Well, look, I had,I have the great fortune of having been in boards for 10 years before I went on a board on the other side of the table, because in my professional life, I was a company secretary and, or have been a company secretary and general counsel.so I, that's a great advantage. So, you know, I've actually been in the boardroom at the board table and able to observe,what I think,you know, to be very high performance as a director,and,have been able to, to watch and learn from some really great directors over the organisations,in the organisations that I've been in.so that's a huge advantage. And for me also, it was an opportunity to really understand in action, how you operate differently as a director and how your oversight role is very different, so different,to, to your operational,sort of management role.
Speaker 2: (28:08)
Um, and so when I went into boards,I had had the opportunity to observe this, putting it into practise of course is a different thing, and it is,it is a big adjustment.and you really have to switch your mindset,from really thinking, well, I only miss and I'm driving this.and I'm responsible for this to thinking, okay, I'm here in,in a governance oversight role, how can I effectively and appropriately,challenge, but also,you know, coach,and,sort of help the management team to achieve the business objectives.and so really that's through questioning,uh, and that's through,you know, offering insights from outside the organisation, because that's the benefit that you bring in being,you know, independent director or non-executive director.so,you know, it's a very, it's a very different role. Yeah,
Speaker 1: (29:09)
Yes it is. And you're right, that the company secretary opportunities gave you not only the insight, but also the ticket.and I'm really, really interested to hear from you observing others, join boards, what are the other common avenues to being in an executive director? Because not everybody listening will have that experience and I'm super keen to hear from you who else is joining boards these days.
Speaker 2: (29:36)
Yeah. So look, I think,as with your listeners will know you, I mean, there's the, the kind of more traditional skillsets,uh, that go, but that boards look for, and obviously no legal accounting,you know, those are the more sort of traditional,areas,where there is likely to be representation. However,I think the importance of the remuneration committee,uh, you know, it's, it's very much effector in Australian, the Australian context, and I unsure overseas boards as well.and, you know, I think this real interest in ESG and CSR,uh, and depending on the nature of the business and the nature of the board, you know, I think there are avenues in,so,because boards are so focused on,uh, returns and,uh, you know, risk management,in those sorts of areas.
Speaker 2: (30:33)
So,I think also my observation is many boards are looking for sort of the digital marketing,or just that digital skillset.so that there's quite a lot of,areas, I think, where your professional experience may be,a value. But I do think if you're looking to sort of target particular organisations or sectors, I do think you have to be quite realistic about,and strategic about where you would add most value.and in, in terms of really focusing on,you know, particular sectors or organisations where,boards may be looking for your skillset.
Speaker 1: (31:11)
Yes.I have clients that believe that they need to be at the C level before they join a board. Is that still a good reason or, or now, I mean, I'm, I'm very sort of into minds about this. I'm not really sure if that's the case. What do you think?
Speaker 2: (31:32)
Uh, I think it depends probably not a helpful answer, but as I said,you know, it's important to be strategic and,uh, realistic about how valuable your skill set is in particular sectors. And if you're, if you have digital deep digital skills,that would be welcomed,in many organisations,uh, at the board level,you know, then I think you've got a ticket to play,uh, in terms of targeting those sorts of organisations, whether you're at the C level or not now, of course you, you would have had to have pretty deep experience. So,you know,even if you're not at the C level,you'd be able to, you'd need to be able to show that expertise and,you know, have board members really appreciate what you could bring to the table.but I don't think it's, I don't think it's necessarily a prerequisite.
Speaker 2: (32:30)
I had an interesting conversation with a recruiter who does a lot of board placements. And his comment to me was,you know, that, that women, and this is not, it he's very supportive of women,executives and,moving into board careers, but he said,that women may not necessarily be at the C level,in trial, in moving towards a board career. And it's, it's,it just seems that there are more men at the C level,and potentially earlier in their career,than women.and now that's just statistically proven to be the case. It's not necessarily where we'd like it to be.but,and so, you know, his comment to me was,so women not at the fee level,can certainly be,uh, you know,making moves towards a board career.so yeah, so I would say not necessarily, but, um,
Speaker 1: (33:29)
Yeah, so that's the first myth there.and I think it's,uh, great that you identified the key issue, which is the gender factor and the fact that women haven't yet achieved a parody at sea level at partner level. And, you know, that may make them self-select themselves out of the race, because they don't think that they're senior enough, but if you have a deep expertise that is all the important and relevant to that sector, or that organisation specifically, then give it a go, you never know where it's going to take you. The other thing that people,do often is join a not-for-profit board. First, my issue with that is that they join too many and then they burned themselves out because it is a hard job to do, even if it is a not-for-profit, right.
Speaker 2: (34:20)
Yeah. Well, and it may end up being a lot more of a commitment on your time,then a full-profit board, as we all know,because in the not-for-profit sector, you may be asked to actually roll up your sleeves and help occasionally,with the sort of operational execution of things,purely because of the limited capacity.so, so is this
Speaker 1: (34:44)
An important sandbox still to, to train directors before they join a paid position?
Speaker 2: (34:52)
Speaker 1: (34:54)
Speaker 2: (34:55)
Yeah, I don't think it's necessary. No,again, my answer would be, it depends.and,for me, I mean, I have been in the sort of not-for-profits,uh, area in terms of my board roles, but that's been because I've been balancing with a, an executive,career and,and because it's given me an opportunity to pursue for purpose,uh, you know, to, to work with full purpose organisations,and to use my professional skillset in that capacity, which is something I've, that's what I've wanted to do.having said that, you know, moving forward, I am looking,to, to sort of expand,my board roles, if, if that's available to me to,you know, the listed space,and,you know, the sort of pulpit for-profit,private sector, but, but, you know, for me personally,it was intentional,to go into that space. I don't think it's a prerequisite.it is a good, it is a good way to,to sort of explore as I have done interests outside your executive interests,and to go into organisations that you wouldn't necessarily be exposed to. And,and, you know, to have an impact,in that space, but, you know, if you don't have that drive,then I don't think necessarily it's,for you.
Speaker 1: (36:19)
Yes. I, I'm glad that you mentioned that because it's, you know, a lot of executives thinks that that's the only thing that they can do after they graduate from there, you know, full time as extra rules. And it's not, I mean, you're doing interesting work. You've taken time off, you went and did a screenplay,you know, training in LA. Like you can do all the things and you don't necessarily need to just go and become,an executive director. In fact, chances are, you will not be able to because there aren't that many positions
Speaker 2: (36:50)
That's exactly right.and I, I definitely think,you know, if you think about your career in a very linear way,you know, I think,it's, there's, there is a chance that you'll be disappointed,uh, because you know, it's great. I think, well, my personal experience,is it's great to have sort of broad goals,and it's great to have to target areas that you enjoy and to look at characteristics of organisations where, you know, that play to your strengths. I think those are great things to have clear in your mind, but I think there's always that element of opportunism.and I think there's always, there needs to be that openness. You need to have an openness,to, to,you know, opportunities.and I certainly think in my career, I've really benefited,from, from just having an open mind.