Episode 341 - Financial stress can change how we assess risk, negotiate, job search and plan our next career move. Carrie Joy Grimes, founder and CEO of WorkMoney, joins me to discuss financial runway, career transitions, money anxiety and how to make better decisions when your income or employment suddenly feels uncertain.

Renata Bernarde
Carrie, how are we going to help my audience make better decisions when they are in transition but also in financial stress.
Carrie Joy Grimes
That’s the right question for so many of us. I mean, financial stress isn’t a thing that we walk around saying, I’m financially stressed right now. I mean, some of us do, some of us have, but for the most part, In my experience and the experience of a lot of folks I’ve worked with, it’s this like haze or like a weighted blanket that just kind of is covering you, and you kind of trudge through it, and the weight of it becomes you kind of get used to it after a while. A lot of us are not even aware of how much stress we’re under when it’s happening. And so what I find people do is a few different things. One is they make decisions quickly. A lot of times, folks who are experiencing stress are reacting and making decisions to get rid of the stress, which is a different thing than making a decision about the next stage of your life and it makes your time horizon shorter and so you end up trying to do something to make it feel better in the moment or to end this like kind of feeling of it’s never going to be okay. And so we either assume we can’t take a risk that maybe we can, or we grab something that we could have taken a pass on and held out for something else. And so there’s a few things. And some of this may sound pretty familiar to a lot of listeners. But one thing is really understanding how much money we need to live at the most basic level, and then how much money we want to have for the good things of life that we are currently experiencing. And then how much we need for retirement and our financial goals. Like really kind of having a clear understanding of what those benchmarks are can help. Because then when we feel stress, we have a rooted place to go back to be like, okay, well what do I need? What do I have? And then what do I need? And then what am I hoping to get for now? And then what do I need for the future? And so one thing I always say is, Doing your money math when you’re not feeling stressed helps you understand what reality is when you are feeling stressed, because stress can kind of distort reality. And then the other thing I talk about with a lot of people, and I am going to pre-roll my eyes for the people listening, because I could hear the eye rolling coming, is having an emergency fund or what I call a life happens fund. Having a cushion that allows you the space to feel less stressed and make the best medium- and long-term decision you can. Which is, you know, you save what you can. And in this economy it can be pretty hard for folks. And I mean, I’m turning fifty this year. So those of us who are fifty, we are really a lot closer to retirement than we were ten years ago. And so I know that the need to make a good transition in these moments can feel like we don’t have enough runway or time. So I just want to acknowledge that the emergency fund and that level of stress can make the worry feel more acute, especially as we get older. And the last thing I often tell people is that it is okay to make decisions about how you feel about things. That money, I always say this thing, money is math and feelings. And I don’t say that because the feelings are a thing we have to stop worrying about, or that the math is the thing that we should throw away. I mean, they’re both really important. And in some ways, the feelings are what the money is for, right? The math is supposed to get us to some feelings or give us the resources we need to feel better about our lives. And so the last thing I often talk about with folks is, you know, obviously knowing your math, knowing what you need, but also knowing what matters to you and what makes you feel good. So for me as an example, I would not do very well having a particular kind of boss. I know this about myself. I am fifty, I’ve had many jobs. And so there might be a kind of work I like, but as I went through an interview process, there’s a particular kind of boss I know I don’t want to have. I mean, well, honestly, at this point in my life, any boss is a little too much boss for me. But there’s a couple that are really not going to work for me. And it’s really great that I know that about myself. If given the option of not having to take that job, knowing that, like those feelings are going to really matter to me, What stress can do to me in those moments is make me grab the thing that I feel like I have to take because it’ll make me feel less stressed. But I know long term I’m going to chew that person’s face off at some point. And so figuring out how to understand the information the feelings are giving me about what I want in my life and what my goals are is important. So those are my three things that I start with.
Renata Bernarde
Yeah. Carrie, I a hundred percent agree with you. What I have learned from developing the courses that I do for professionals that are looking for work is that the three things you mentioned are the three things that we don’t usually do. We don’t do them. We don’t we don’t look at our budgets that often. There are organizations like yours helping. But as you know, people don’t really put a lot of effort into that. They also don’t put a lot of effort into understanding and having that awareness of what they want out of their careers because the day-to-day takes so much out of them. So I’m so glad you brought it all up. When people find themselves in a situation where they are our age and they are not working anymore, they need to find a job and they feel like they are behind with all of these three things, what should their first step be in order to start getting their life back together again?
Carrie Joy Grimes
The first thing I recommend, and the first thing I did in my own life, is this: you know, I’m not somebody who was born with the magic calculator brain. I had to learn money and that’s part of why I always say, like, if I can be good at money, anybody can be good at money. There are some basics. So the very first thing I do and did and recommend to people is that just like a sports coach would talk to an athlete, is to get your mind right. And this is not like bubble bath and woo-woo candles. It can be if that’s your jam. It’s just, you know, not my particular method. Just to figure out what is it that I believe about myself and my finances, and then what do I want to be true? And is there a gap between those things? A lot of people I talk to say, Well, I’m bad at money. Like I’m not good at money. I’ve you know, it’s a thing, I struggle with it. It’s just it’s not something I know how or I don’t even know about money. Nobody ever taught me about money. And so the first thing, and this doesn’t take that long, but it does take practice, what I do is say, Well, figure out whatever that money story is that you have in your head. Mine used to be, I’ll never be good at money. Nobody taught me, so I assumed I wasn’t good at it. And then I decided, well, no, I can be good at money. And I literally had a practice every day for years of saying, I can be good at money. Of course I can. And then I would look for moments when I made a good decision. And I would say, yes, like that. And I would kind of overemphasize and really reward myself and my brain for the things I did that made sense. That’s the first thing. It’s like really understanding your money brain, the way your mind works and deciding what your money story is. And then the second thing, the practical, that’s a very practical thing, by the way, that’s brain science. But the thing you can do right now is an audit. Just sit down. And open the envelope, go to the website, deep breath. You don’t have to do anything with the information right away. If it feels very anxiety producing to even look at all of it, which it can for some people. Deep breath, but set a timer for five minutes and just go look at everything. And then, you know, there’s lots of guides. I’ve got some resources we could talk about, but however you get there, just figure out how much money you’re spending and how and how much you need to be spending. And just take a look at what you’re doing and decide. Are these the decisions you want to make with your money? And you know, I’ll just say this one thing about budgeting. And I’m not here to tell everybody you have to budget a particular way. I have a method which I’m happy to share with people, but whatever way works for you is great. The idea of a budget, to me, used to be like, this thing that made me feel bad because I wasn’t getting it right. And what I’ve figured out for me is that budgeting is how I’m in charge, like how I choose, how I know what to choose with my money. So those are the first two things: figuring out how you’re approaching your own money life and deciding how who and how you want to be. And then the second thing is just that very first step of understanding what you’re spending your money on and deciding if that’s how you want to be spending your money. That’s the first step.
Renata Bernarde
Yes. I love that. One of the things with my audience and I don’t know the larger podcast because it’s much bigger than my clientele, but with my clientele, which are senior managers, senior executives working in this sort of corporate world, white-collar jobs, the hardest issue for them during an extended job search, which usually happens with them, right? Because if you’re looking for very senior roles there aren’t that many, turnover is much lower. The hardest thing for them is remaining in the status quo that they’re used to and not having any flexibility to accept help or support or understand that maybe the kids can’t go to private school. I know this is a privileged sort of way of thinking, but it causes financial
Carrie Joy Grimes
No, no.
Renata Bernarde
Stress for people, so I still have to talk about it. So that’s the first thing, especially here in Australia, because there’s such a big culture of, you know, if you if you make it in life, your kids go to private school, which I know it’s not the same in the US. The second thing is I cannot move out of this house. I cannot move out of this neighborhood. I cannot move back with my parents because I’m a grown adult. And you know what? We’re going to work so long, we’re going to work for I don’t know, four decades, five decades, we’re living longer, that’s ultimately what’s going to happen. Our retirement policies haven’t been designed to help us through 100 when we’re retiring at 60. So this means that we need to sort of start rethinking success, right? So there will be ups and downs throughout your career. And frankly, the earlier people experience challenges in their career, the more resilient I’ve noticed that they become. Whereas if you’ve had a very linear career for like 25 years and then you get made redundant, then all of a sudden you have really no tools or resources or skills to deal with that financial stress that you start to feel if you have to look for work for a year, sometimes a year and a half, two if you’re a senior.
Carrie Joy Grimes
That’s so well said. The both the point about resilience and the point about how hard it is for people to make the mental transition. And the and you know, when I talk to folks about these moments of transition in their lives, the budgets that they had and the budgets that they can afford are often different. And the thing that I find gets people stuck is this feeling what they describe to me is You know, nobody says the word shame right away, but there’s like a feeling of you know, failure, shame, anxiety, fear. It kind of comes out like avoidance most of the time. Like I can’t I’m that people don’t want to engage in the in the in the in the conversation, but which by the way, I totally understand. And look, I don’t know the value of that choice to keep your kiddo in private school or the house you’re in. Like there’s an emotional value to that too. And people can make and look, I’m not I do not judge folks if that is worth that much stress for you. I Maybe it is. Most of the time what I find is that once people can breathe past the difficulty of transition, because by the way, a job transition and a home transition is a lot of transition. Like we are, you know, we all know the most stressful moments in our lives. Those are two of the some of the biggest ones. So I really get the kind of sometimes what feels like reflexive avoidance or sort of stuckness around that stuff. And I part of what I’m what I’m always so curious about with folks is just to ask, you know, like what’s the value of that to you? I don’t mean monetary, but like what tell let’s talk about why that matters. And then is there some way to meet that need in a different way? You know, like and I loved I haven’t thought about the way you just said I love what you just said about that the that describing success in this fast-moving economy, technological world, and culture, like the ups and downs are very real, you know, for all of us. And it I think it was different in my grandparents’ days when, you know, not everybody, but many people had a reasonable expectation that they could go. Just, you know, you would it was a linear progression. And that’s not what most people I know are experiencing in this economy right now.
Renata Bernarde
No, no. It’s been a real change. I even now, I think post pandemic, this change about the permanency of your role, right? The idea that you might only get contract opportunities from now on. And that is really not what our generation, you know, I’m fifty-four you’re fifty. Our generation was expecting to have a job for life because we were raised by people that wanted job for life. So we are the
Carrie Joy Grimes
They had that. Yeah.
Renata Bernarde
Sort of in between. I think younger generations they’re they’re really more open to that portfolio style of career, that flexibility. But it’s it’s such a big issue and I really want people to feel comfortable doing that. And it’s quite funny because when I ask in my coaching program, I ask who are your biggest influences, you know, who do you look up to, what are your the celebrities? They’re usually people that have struggled, right? We love to see struggle in TV, in movies, in books, but when it comes to us, everything needs to be linear and perfect. We can’t have ups and downs. You know, we like to see that storytelling when it’s fiction or when it’s somebody else, like a sports person, but when it’s us, everything we do needs to be successful. So there is a discrepancy there between what we admire and what we’re willing to do ourselves and go through ourselves.
Carrie Joy Grimes
I have a theory about this. because having fallen victim to it myself, or fallen victim to it is I don’t mean to be so judgmental, but having experienced that myself, I think, for me, I feel like I have more control when I am entirely to blame. The idea that there are ups and downs introduces the idea that there are forces beyond our control that are affecting how much we can earn and how we can be successful or not. And there’s something comforting and I think also like the way I was raised that if I apply enough effort and pressure and have enough grit and maybe a little luck but really it’s all grit, effort, pressure and my own brilliance, I can get myself to the top of the mountain. Now look, you can’t get to the top of the mountain if you don’t try. So let’s be clear. Like everybody is responsible for the hand of cards that they’re dealt. Even if your hand of cards is worse than everybody else’s, you still have to figure out best way to play those cards. Like I’m this is I’m a very big believer in people accepting and exercising personal responsibility as much as they can. There’s nothing, you can’t, there’s no getting out of that. And the conditions in which we’re playing the game, I think are changing and getting harder for folks. And I think that it’s it’s a very common sense, self-protective thing to say that, no, no, it’s just my cards. That’s really what we have As an individual person, that’s really what we have access to. Once you start to say, it’s the it’s technology, it’s the industry I’m in, then I think it’s I think that actually it can be a very scary reality for folks. And it’s funny, and I think your point about how the younger generation is a little has more flexibility built in by necessity, is right. I have a 19-year-old and you know, she’s in college and she’s university in the US and she’s like Trying to figure out what to study. And she says, Hey mom, yeah, you’re you know, you’re a big fancy money lady. Like, what should I study? You know how dangerous it is to answer a teenager’s question, right? Like it’s like if I tell her, does that mean she’s not going to do it, or does it mean she is going to do it? You it depends on what day of the week it is. And yeah, totally. So I had like a bit of
Renata Bernarde
The reverse psychology situation.
Carrie Joy Grimes
A parent, like, but then honestly I said, Think critically, work hard, get good grades, do something that’s going to that you can demonstrate to an employer that you have the ability to like solve problems. Because she realizes that there’s not a lot of terra firma, not a lot of solid ground to stand on right now. And It’s I feel like we’re looking at opposite ends of the spectrum because sometimes what she’ll say to me is, then why bother? If there’s no path for me, why should I even try? But it’s very interesting to watch like I people my age or a little older Like I think we really do have a sense of expectation that it should be working out for us individually. And then when it doesn’t, we’re like, well, that’s that’s have to be us. I think for younger folks, there’s an i there’s been the pendulum has kind of swung the other way. And what I’m hearing a lot from younger folks it won’t work out for me no matter what I do because everything is so difficult to navigate. And I’m very curious how we kind of use our like both ends of that spectrum to try to a figure out ways individual people can be more successful. Like what’s the what’s the what’s the good middle? Which is the system is harder than it should be for too many of us to navigate. But here’s here are my options individually in this process. Here’s the best I can do. And then can we like affect, you know, policy, technology in a way that makes it a little less difficult to play the game. So but also like not giving up entirely. You know, I’m I think the next Five or so years are going to be really transformative for how people enter and leave the workforce. I’m curious what you think because you do a lot of this coaching and think about the same stuff.
Renata Bernarde
I think about this all the time. One of the most controversial things that I have to say about this is about ageism. And that is because I feel yes, there is ageism. That you cannot control what other people think of you, of your age or all of that. And we can but we can control how we show up. And I see that happening in across all sorts of demographics and at all ages as well, is this dystopian view of the future or this a resistance to change, which I think has more to do with a muscle we haven’t really worked on than it is with your age or your level of education. It’s this idea that, well, but I’ve always done well the way that I work. I’m not going to now adopt AI, you know, these people talking about AI. We can’t have that mentality if we want to keep working another decade and we’re in our fifties. We have to change the
Carrie Joy Grimes
Yeah, that’s right.
Renata Bernarde
Way we think about employment and how it we’re retained. It may not be permanent anymore. We have to adapt to what’s coming. So if it’s contract roles, well then you have to adapt to contract roles starting with making those adjustments to finance, to savings and reflecting on the sort of work you want to do. If it is recognising something you know is coming your way in terms of a trend, that’s also important. If there’s anybody young listening here, what I’ve been telling my nephews and nieces is, you know, don’t rely solely on the education you’re getting formally from school or university. That’s not enough anymore. It’s not
Carrie Joy Grimes
This is great. Yeah, that’s right.
Renata Bernarde
Enough. And it has to be something you absolutely love to do. This idea that we had in the past that, you know, to be safe you have to be an accountant. I mean accountants these days are in so much risk of losing their jobs because it’s I’m sorry you guys, it’s so easy to replace a lot of what you do with automation. So if you want to be an accountant
Carrie Joy Grimes
Yeah, that’s right. That’s so funny.
Renata Bernarde
Yeah, isn’t it? Like there’s a lot of professions that we thought were safe, even doctors, even anything in health. Yes. Yes. Exactly.
Carrie Joy Grimes
Computer programmers, engineers, you know, a lot of the harder sciences. I’ve never been so relieved to have a daughter who’s studying the humanities. I you know what I mean? Like five years ago I wouldn’t have thought this. Yeah, I think that’s really great advice to give your nieces and nephews right now.
Renata Bernarde
Yes. Some out of the box professions. I have a niece who is a TikTok influencer. She is making money. Let her be. You know. If that’s what makes her money and she’s doing good content and she’s very talented, she’s very artistic. Well, you know, that’s what a new kind of artist may look like in this century. Just let her do whatever she wants to do. And I think we need to sort of trust them. You know, trust that they are making decisions based on what they understand and the intuition they have about the future, which is probably better than ours at this stage. So
Carrie Joy Grimes
I hope for my daughter’s sake it is.
Renata Bernarde
You know, I think even in the nineties, Jack Welch used to say, be mentored by a younger person if you don’t understand technology. And I’m like, yes, let’s get mentored by our kids. They might know what’s coming better than we are. Look, if it’s okay with you, I want to shift to employers now because I think it’s such an important thing for us to discuss as well. Employers I find can play a really big role in making it easier or harder for their employees to undergo financial stress. So what is it that you believe employers misunderstand when it comes to financial stress Sometimes it I think shows up in how disengaged we are, you know, how distracted we are, how much leave we take, sometimes poor performance. What is it that as a leader, you know, if my audience is listening here and they manage teams, what can they do better?
Carrie Joy Grimes
I mean, the obvious thing is, and I know as somebody who runs an organization, pay people the most we can. Like we all have to run organizations, there’s lots of different cost centers, but making sure people are paid as much as possible is the first obvious fix for financial stress. And then I’ll say as somebody who has been financially stressed, who has managed work in other organizations where people were, one of the things that I know and I think we all know is that people don’t come into work and say, Hey, I’m financially stressed. Like it’s not like a problem that it’s easy to notice. Like you don’t walk in and there’s not like a special sign on someone’s desk or they don’t show up to Zoom with a little like ribbon on their Zoom. Like there’s it’s it just to your point, it generally shows up as exhaustion, distraction, time off, dissatisfaction with the job sometimes, and then turnover, you know, like then people leaving. And people not being motivated. Cause you it just takes up a lot of brain calories to manage that stress. Like it’s an automatic minus 20 to every engagement when somebody’s trying to figure out how to navigate. And a note about financial stress too. This isn’t just for people who are working poor or working class, financial stress is something that anybody can feel if they can’t afford the things they value to do. For example, if you have to pull your kid out of private school, like are you in a different mathematical situation than somebody who might have to sell their house? Yes, of course, but the feeling of loss about that and the feeling of the stress of change in your life is the same chemicals are released in your brain and body. It’s not less stress. It might be less materially problematic in the long run. If you’ve got a good public school. You what I mean? Like I’m not trying to equate the problems the same way, but the feeling of stress happens to a lot of different people up and down the income ladder. And it’s not just reserved for those like I was when I was younger who are really struggling to make ends meet. It’s not that’s not the only kind of financial stress. And so it so it can be pretty easy to miss because people don’t announce it. And it can be pretty easy to miss because it also shows up in a bunch of ways. And so one thing that I often encourage folks who are employers to consider is a multitude of ways that you can meet your employees where they are around their money. One is obviously like I said, like pay people, like pay people as well as we possibly can. And then there’s a few other things like obviously a good retirement match, a health plan in America, flexible spending accounts. Like there’s lots of benefits, which anybody listening to this, if you are an HR professional, you know more about that than I do, and I’m not going to lecture you. I will say that A lot of financial wellness programs that are offered at work assume that the problem is that people don’t have information. And that’s not generally the problem. I mean, it’s not, but most people just want to know what to do. Most folks aren’t like, give me the 10 pieces of information about 401s so I can choose for myself. Now, for that person, having the information is great. But most people, there’s there’s some basic stuff like why take it and How do you make it easier for people to take advantage of a 401 match? Just as an example. Like, why would you take one? It’s free money. It’s it’s part of your salary. Like having a simple set of recommendations for some people in the form of sometimes people like classes, sometimes people like one-on-one coaching, sometimes people like self-taught, you know, seminars. So what we do at my organization and what I always recommend is having a multitude of content and of help for folks. And what I find with most people, and this I’d be so curious what you have to say, because this is such a work career issue. Most folks that I talk to are just like, Carrie Joy, just tell me what I’m supposed to do here. Just tell me. Like, how much of my pay? Like, why do I need it? I don’t want to know. Just tell me.’ And there’s a little bit of like self education people should have, because you need to know what your goals are and this is going to get you there. But for most employers, I kind of recommend like Have a set of things that you can provide your employees and then have four or five ways people can learn about them. Everything from here’s a class to like, here’s an individual financial counselor that somebody could access if they wanted.
Renata Bernarde
Mm, yeah, I like that very much. I think what you’re saying is that people have different styles of how they want to learn about this, but also we don’t know at what stage they understand that there is a problem, right? So they might
Carrie Joy Grimes
Yes. Yes. Yeah, that’s right.
Renata Bernarde
Need to be educated in understanding that problem and that education could potentially be part of professional development. You know, if you want to
Carrie Joy Grimes
Yeah, that’s right.
Renata Bernarde
Retain stuff, if you want if talent acquisition and talent retention is important to you, then understanding that financial stress can happen even when they have no financial issues whatsoever, by the way. Like I’ve seen that happen. You know, people that book a meeting with me for coaching and I say, Okay, you lost your job. What is your runway? How long do you think you can bootstrap yourself? Maybe a year, a year and a half. And then I say, Okay, let’s work together then, but I can’t afford you. And I’m like, You just said you know, like people have this idea that because they’re not earning money monthly, that they are in financial stress. So that our body still will release those stress hormones and will still make us feel like we’re in this huge fight and flight situation facing, I don’t know, a big bear out in the wild when in fact
Carrie Joy Grimes
That’s right.
Renata Bernarde
You just you lost your job. You’re not going to die. You know, you’re not going to nothing bad’s going to happen to you. You have enough time and career credit to find another job. Most people do. You know, very rarely I tell a client I think you need a year, you know, a year and a half. Only if they’re very senior, only if they come from a really disliked industry, sometimes if people come to me from a really disliked role, if they have burnt many bridges, I say, Okay, let’s let’s let’s work together for a year. But usually it’s just three months, you guys. Like especially with support, support from
Carrie Joy Grimes
Yeah. Yeah.
Renata Bernarde
Organizations like yours, from stuff like what I do, it’s three to six months, you’re going to be fine. So I think that is impor it’s important to have that marketplace because sometimes you need to educate them on the potential risks and issues that are coming your way eventually in your career. Nobody is going to ever have a forty year career without any issues. And others are more ready for it. So I think a good employer would be, really great to their teams if they have smorgasbord that you can choose from and people can just go and pick what they want.
Carrie Joy Grimes
A good way to say it. I mean one of the things that’s true in the United States in particular, I don’t know these statistics for Australia is that in the US, on average every five years a household will go through a significant financial crisis is maybe too strong of a word, but like something significant like a job loss. The death of a loved one who earned some income like in the adult years. It’s a major housing issue, like there’s something that happens. And an average is a bad way to think about your personal life. But you can you get the sense that things like that are going to happen. And what’s so interesting is that when the Bureau of Labor Statistics looked at all the statistics, and what they found is that the average length of time from job loss to re-employment is around three months. And so what I do for me is I actually have a six-month life happens fund. That’s what I call it. Because I like to remind myself that life happens. Like it’s there for that. This is not my retirement. These are not my investments. I’ve increased it to nine months because in this economy I wanted to have an extra cushion. But it but it’s historically
Renata Bernarde
Got it.
Carrie Joy Grimes
Been three and then six where it just sits in a high-interest savings account and that’s what it’s there for. And I don’t feel guilty about using it in one of those big life emergency moments. I don’t use it for like That trip I really want to take to Italy and eat a lot of pasta, which I’ve not yet done, that’s going to be saved up for in a different account. But it really is there and it’s supposed to be used. And it’s that runway that you were talking about, you know, that I think is different than retirement. And part of why I say this is that I think there’s a pretty simple formula for how people get to basic financial stability. Which I don’t think is that complicated. Now and we’ll be clear, people should tailor it for what works for them, right? I don’t know what people’s values are, but I always recommend that you get your money, your money mindset right, and then you figure out your basic budget. That’s just how much money comes in, how much money do you want to go out. You make sure you have at least like a thousand dollars saved as an emergency fund if you don’t have anything, which most people have some, but if you’ve got nothing, at least that and then of course you want to pay off any high-interest. Debt that you have, carrying that as a big albatross. The one thing you can do before you pay that debt off is if you have an employer match through a 401 or a retirement plan, whatever you can do to maximize that match is actually going to make you more money in the long run. That’s the one exception. But if you don’t have that, you’re just paying off the high-interest debt, then you save yourself up that three- to six-month cushion. And then after that, you’re in a position where I think people can think about saving to buy a house, saving for retirement. And most folks in America don’t max out their tax-advantaged retirement accounts. And doing that because of the tax advantages will make you the most money of any investment on average that you can make in the US. It’s not, it’s again, I always say It’s not rocket science. It’s not. And so for most people, what I end up doing is when I lay that out for people, I’d say that container fits most of the folks I talk to, especially folks who are professionals, seniors, executives, who are figuring out, you know, we’re not wealthy. Necessarily. So we so we have some financial anxiety, you know, but we have enough money to make choices with it. And then after that, once you get to the investing stage and all that jazz, that’s like that’s that’s just low-cost index funds, folks, unless you’re smart like my husband and you want to do his kind of cryptocurrency stock picking, which I don’t do. And I think that having a mental model for what it can look like along the way can really help people because what I’m so curious about this, what you think. For folks like me, my age, your age, when we are in career transition, there’s the there’s the feelings of, I didn’t do it right. I transitioned my job about 10 years ago and it I did have like a did I make a mistake? And I had to deal with my own feelings of like discomfort. I wasn’t sure. I had a little anxiety and shame around it. And once I got past that, the other thing was I just felt like I didn’t know how to judge what good from bad was in the transition. I and I know you must work with a lot of folks individually about like how do I know what I want? How do I tell what’s good for me? And I’m curious, how much does money play a part of that with the folks that you work with? I assume it’s kind of like the
Renata Bernarde
Yes, too much.
Carrie Joy Grimes
Big piece of it, but it’s not the entirety of it.
Renata Bernarde
Yeah. Yeah, no, it plays a lot into that career transition and negatively unfortunately. So a couple of things I want to answer that, but I just want to say something as well about doing the budget because I think this is something people maybe have a misconception, but if I’m wrong I want to be corrected. In my past, when I’ve done my little savings, it’s not the savings For you To live the way you live right now. For me, it was always like my I call it my instant noodle savings. It’s
Carrie Joy Grimes
Correct.
Renata Bernarde
Not that I’m going to eat instant noodles, you guys, but maybe I will cancel my yoga and I will do yoga on YouTube, which I have done several times. I will cancel my cleaner, I will, not buy this, this, and that, I will shop differently. And once you start doing that, there’s a freedom in that, in going through that stage of your life. Life where in your in transition, you’re not earning a salary, and you’re not spending as much, and you think, wow, I actually can live with less if I want to. You know, what is really my career ambition? And I have many clients that have done this while working with me and then have come to realize that, well, you know what? What I want is to actually start a business. What I want is actually to do what you do, Renata. You know, let’s change the coaching instead of looking for work. How do you be how do you become a solo entrepreneur? How do you open up a business? Or I’m going to build an app or I’m going, whatever it is, you know, hire people and build up a consultancy. Completely change careers, completely change paths. Go back to study. All of that gives you options.
Carrie Joy Grimes
Yes, the options. You get you have more options. I love that. I love the way you said that. And this is the thing about budgeting that I value so much. And I also love I to completely agree with you. When I talk about my emergency fund, my life happens fund, it is not to pay for all the things that we have right now. It is to pay for the things I must pay for. It is my house, it is basic utilities, it’s and one thing that’s going to make me enjoy my week, but not 20 things that make me enjoy my week, you know, because I think that’s part of how you stick to a budget is it’s got to have a little bit of joy in it. It’s very science-y. However, it’s not every single thing. No, you’re right, it’s super stripped down. And there is a freedom in that. And the thing I love about what you’re saying is that once you know you can do that, and once you know that you have the resources put by, it does allow a whole different kind of choice making. You can imagine things you couldn’t imagine before. And I don’t and I love the statistic. I know I re said it before, but that every five years somebody goes through something really difficult. That’s not me saying, How blessed are we to have difficult things? Believe me, I would love a world where that it was every no years, you know? And there is something about the resilience of having to learn that you can, like nobody dies. Like you do a hard thing and you can get through it. There’s something there is a there is an unfortunate benefit out of going through that kind of hard time, which is that you learn that you can. And then it’s like, well, maybe doing this work that pays less would feel better to me than having these other things that right now I’m I enjoy. And I don’t know if it will or won’t. For some people, being able to have that house and that neighborhood with that car and that furniture in it really does bring them a particular kind of joy and I would not judge. But for me it was really eye opening to understand like I just I just don’t This is nobody else’s business, but. I just don’t care about clothes. I just don’t. I just don’t. Much to my daughter’s chagrin and constant derision. It’s just not my thing. I don’t care about cars. I just don’t. I know I have friends who do and they and they get such pleasure out of it. You know, I care about trashy romance novels and a bunch of other things. And I love that I
Renata Bernarde
We’re so alike. Can we be friends? I do like clothes though.
Carrie Joy Grimes
Yes, totally. We sure we think I think we already are. And I and I what I love about what you’re saying is that money is about choices. It’s not the goal. And if you need more of it to get to the goal, then you know, God bless ya. Go get the more of it. But I love what you just said, that part of that emergency fund and that life happens fund is that scaled down version of life. And you know, I will admit to you that every so often we do a periodic belt-tightening in my household. Just to shed the subscriptions we’ve accidentally accrued and the, you know, that this was easy, so I just hit the button. I mean, all this stuff is designed to get us to do that. A lot of companies that provide that kind of customer service are counting on the lack of use and the I mean, we’ve I mean they anybody who’s joined a gym is fully aware that they count on the lack of use and the inability to unsubscribe, you know. So I think
Renata Bernarde
Yes. Yes. A hundred percent.
Carrie Joy Grimes
I love what you said. It’s a good it’s a good practice even for folks not going through transition.
Renata Bernarde
Look, this is this is so important and I think the lack of representation of that happening to other people is a bit really problematic. I want to go back to what you asked about what I think about that financial distress impacting careers because we go to TV and most shows are like fancy offices and they are lawyers, they are all dressed amazingly and they earn big money and we don’t see people going through what we’re going through. And one of the things that I was thinking while you were talking about it is this there’s this influencer in Australia. It’s we call it the Byron Bay influencers, if you know, you know, people that live in a certain area in Australia where Chris Hemsworth lives and Matt Damon has a house and Tom Hanks has a house. It’s a very fancy part of Australia and really beautiful. And she had this beautiful house and she was an influencer on Instagram and everything was going right for her. And then her husband lost his job and he worked. For a big, global consulting firm, big job. He was probably financing, behind the scenes the luxury that she was showcasing. They moved into her mother-in-law’s house like a few weeks later. It was immediate. And I think that seeing that play out on my Instagram feed was just so I thanked her so many times. She never replied, but I sent her messages. Thank you for sharing what’s going on with you, and for explaining and being so real about it because your life didn’t seem real before. But now I have so many clients that will relate to what’s going on with you. If your husband needs help finding a job, just tell him to ring me. I will do it for free. I’m just so in love with you guys because you’re not afraid of showing what it looks like to go through a major setback and to actually enjoy it. You know, after the initial shock and the sadness and the grief, they went traveling. She’s from Canada. She went back and spent like months in Canada. They now have a business and they started an Airbnb in Byron Bay. You know what? Good for them. You know, and seeing that play out I think is really important for her followers and we should have more of that.
Carrie Joy Grimes
I could not agree more. I believe and I know I’m going to sound like a broken record. It’s like figuring out what your money story is, knowing what your budget is now and what your break glass budget is in an emergency, and then having that life happens fund ready so that if something were to happen like that, And let’s just say too, sometimes we get to a certain age in our work and we’re like, I don’t want to do this anymore. What happened to me is I had an idea. I had an idea and I wanted to go do this other idea and I could afford to take the risk emotionally, not just financially, but emotionally, because I had enough of a runway that I got to make the choices That’s part of how WorkMoney, that’s the nonprofit that I run that has 9.5 million members. Part of why it exists is because I could leave my work as a consultant and say, Well, I but I have an idea and I have a runway. And I now, you know, my financial life is in great, great shape. But it was certainly a choice to do that. And I’m so grateful that I could. And I love what you said too, that it’s not just th you know, I struggle with like, just, you know Just look for the bright side and everything can be turned into an opportunity. And no, sometimes things are sad and hard and it’s not good. And we and I’m not trying to brush past that, like acknowledge the grief, but I love what you said, which is that after the shock and after the sadness, you had the chance to watch somebody actually exploring what it would look like to live this kind of a life. And they found a way that resulted in a life that is pretty great. And you could see it play out. And I just I love what you said and I wish there were more representations of real life. I mean, obviously they didn’t start that way, given where they were living and who they were keeping company with. But you know, I love that I love that’s so normal and we don’t see enough of it, you know?
Renata Bernarde
Mm, I like that too. We’ve been told not to talk about money, Carrie. So the organization that you have is so important because it’s all about making people comfortable. With talking about finances, talking about money, how much you earn. We’ve been told, you can’t share how much you earn. I think that being told all of these things, you shouldn’t share your career struggles, you shouldn’t share your looking for work, you shouldn’t share how anxious you are, all of that just does not help your cause. It helps
Carrie Joy Grimes
You know?
Renata Bernarde
Big employers keep salaries down. It helps
Carrie Joy Grimes
Yes.
Renata Bernarde
You not being able to negotiate properly when you are offered a job because you don’t know how much people earn.
Carrie Joy Grimes
Correct. Correct.
Renata Bernarde
Thank goodness for Glassdoor, for offering some anonymized data there for us. So all of that is really important. And I’ve already told you’m quite controversial because of how I feel about ageism and how we think as individuals, we need to control that a little bit more and understand our responsibility in it. The other thing I’m very controversial about is being overqualified in applying for jobs you’re overqualified for. Because what you’re doing is downplaying your expertise and in being anxious about your financial situation, applying for jobs that pay less just so that you can get something, that is in fact the opposite of what you should be doing, because you are going to be perceived as overqualified and chances are you probably won’t be hired because the job wasn’t designed for people like you. It was designed for a different bracket of employees. Companies are actually quite smart, you know, many times in developing that success succession planning and the structure of how they envision their teams to look like and the sort of capabilities and skill sets that they need to bring. And if you’re overqualified, chances are your technical expertise has worn off over the years and you’re probably more in leadership positions, team management, people management, strategy and implementation. And I have a great example I want to share with you of a client that spent eight months applying for jobs that she was overqualified for. She’s in the US, by the way, this client. And she signed up with me for three months and she just got a job applying for roles that she was absolutely the right person for. You know, it was at the director level that she had been at in the past and because it made sense for the employer that she was applying for that role. You know, the salary was aligned with what she had in the past. The sort of expertise that was needed was aligned with what she had developed over the years. It made more sense. So she had that one going, which she was offered last week, and then another two conversations going with organizations at the same level as well. Because she finally understood that she wasn’t going to die, she was just unemployed. And people in the market saw her as a senior executive, not as a technical expert.
Carrie Joy Grimes
That’s so interesting. You know, I do find that folks who are experiencing a lot of financial anxiety can sell themselves a little short. And also, in my experience, it tends to be somewhat gendered too. Women are much more likely to sell themselves shorter than men are and are much more likely to be like, well, I should just apply for these things because I think I could get it. And I do think that. You know, I’m not going to beat a dead horse, you know, but having that runway and understanding your worth as a person, and I again, I don’t judge people. If you know that you’re applying for something that you’re overqualified for, maybe because you didn’t like being a senior executive. Maybe the stress of that was not something you wanted to do and you want to go back to the time when you were just the top of the heap, the best performer at the rung one down below you. You and you like that. And you can articulate that in the interview to an employer, great. But if what’s happening is fear or anxiety, I’m not going to say that you shouldn’t nobody’s allowed to be afraid or anxious. And my experience is that you done it that the job often isn’t a good fit. Even if the employer is willing to hire you and you get in there and you mean, for me, I wouldn’t chafe a little at that, you know, and I so it’s it’s again like I love when people are willing to be in conversation with themselves about why something matters to them, how much money they need, how much money, how long they can afford to in to spend as they’re searching, like what can they and I think of it almost like an investment rather than as like a like a drawdown. Like you’re investing in the future that you want to have. And you know, when people can, I love that they do. And I one of the things I’m in particular with women as we get older, You know, there’s this really interesting Fidelity study. Fidelity is an financial services firm, and they looked at, I think, five billion dollars worth of assets over ten years to see are there patterns of retirement investing that are noticeable. And one of the ones that stuck out is that women are better investors than men because we will put our money into the market and leave it. We don’t get in there and mess around with it. We put it in a in a low-cost index fund, we put it in a target date fund. And then we let the we let the fund rebalance. And these days, you know, Warren Buffett even would say, put your money in an S&P 500 tracker and like don’t touch it. And the market’s so volatile that it can be hard to navigate it. And that’s like a great thing about us, because we’re willing to like, we learn the information, we do the thing, and then we don’t feel Like we could figure it, we know better. We just we follow the direct. But one of the flip side to that is that sometimes I think, especially in career and in and in financial in early finance financial life, sometimes my experience is that women settle. We settle a little too early and for a little too little. And That’s not universally true and it’s not like men always get it right and ha always have it easy. That’s certainly not the case. But one of the things I often encourage women I work with is to just check in and be like, look at what it and think of a man in your situation. Would you behave would you do you think he would behave the same way? How would he how what would he ask for? How would he negotiate differently? You know, and I and it’s sometimes it’s like, the same, same, great, great, you’re on it. And sometimes I find that especially in this transition period, some of the women I’ve worked with are like, actually I think that maybe I could have more patience, be a little bit more aggressive, ask reach a little higher. I’m curious if you’ve seen that pattern too.
Renata Bernarde
Yes, absolutely. When I started coaching, when I decided I wanted to do this, I reached out to a couple of mentors and one of them said, Why do you only want to coach women? You know, you’re you’re taking away 50% of the market if you decide because I wanted to coach just women, just women like me, people just like me. And I took her advice and that’s why I survived Carrie because I’ll be honest with you, men sign up way more quickly than women do.
Carrie Joy Grimes
I bet that’s right. I bet that’s right. I bet that’s right.
Renata Bernarde
And I often sign up women now because I actually tell them that when they when they reach out to me and they sort of you know, I need to think about it. And I’m like, I’m going to say something to you, you think I’m going to oversell. But women take so much longer and they don’t invest in themselves, they prioritize everybody else before them. Themselves.
Carrie Joy Grimes
If anyone out there’s thinking, man, should I get a coach? Man, should I should I tackle my money? Let and if that’s in your head, let this conversation be an indication that you should give it a try. And if you have gotten a coach before and if you’re one of those folks who does who does scrap for themselves, who does negotiate well, good for you, man. Good for you, lady, good for you person. Like that’s a that’s a great way to be. It’s a great way to be.
Renata Bernarde
It’s not just coaching. I don’t want to focus only on my business. It’s it’s taking up education, professional development,
Carrie Joy Grimes
That’s right.
Renata Bernarde
Asking somebody to be a mentor,
Carrie Joy Grimes
That’s right.
Renata Bernarde
Understanding that what is happening to them is actually a tap on the shoulder. Like no, people do believe in you. Just move forward. Yeah, yeah, you are allowed.
Carrie Joy Grimes
Yeah, that’s right.
Renata Bernarde
And I felt that personally in my career, you know, that sometimes I didn’t understand the cues, because I felt I wasn’t deserving, for some reason, which is weird.
Carrie Joy Grimes
You know, it’s funny, there’s the thing I often say, which is what’s just I mean, and I say a good first step is that getting your mind right. Second step is like the money in, money out, like get your budget understandable so that you can get to that life happens fund or emergency fund. Another way to think about this is just like what’s the one thing you can do? If you’re feeling stuck, if you’re feeling like paralyzed or you’re feeling like it’s hopeless, or you’ve tried a bunch of stuff and it’s hard to keep your you know, keep moving your legs, it’s hard to keep going. Just today, what’s that one thing you can do? Maybe it is watching a video about how to budget, maybe it is getting a coach, maybe it is, you know, going to my nonprofit website and seeing if there’s resources for you there. We’re workmoney. org. Anyone’s welcome to visit us. I love that the way that you think about that. And I also like that it’s like kind of not a one-size-fits-all thing, I do love also your comment about finding a mentor. That’s just such a what a gift to have somebody who’s who’s who you listen to. And it doesn’t have to be a human, you know.
Renata Bernarde
Time.
Carrie Joy Grimes
I mean, ideally, but you can always like there’s lots of mentors online. Try to be a little discerning though. Not every piece of content is worth listening to. And I’m sure Renata, you have thoughts about who would be good career mentors and who wouldn’t.
Renata Bernarde
Yeah. That is true. I’m so impressed by or your organization because you have nine million members. How
Carrie Joy Grimes
Yeah, we do.
Renata Bernarde
How did it get to that?
Carrie Joy Grimes
You know, we had this idea that everybody should be able to find someplace and the internet makes this very possible where they could get information they trust about money. And it felt like there’s like bits and pieces and there’s financial gurus and people who yell at you that eat beans and rice all the time. And I just it felt like there wasn’t one home that everybody could go to learn things that they could trust. Like an AARP, which is a in the US it’s an organization that’s meant to support folks who are aging. It’s like an AARP for everyday people, but about money. And so I had this idea and then COVID hit. And COVID was such a I mean, I think everyone’s money just kind of got turned upside down. You know, we got in the US we got stimulus checks, but we didn’t know what to do with them, but people got laid off and then we were all worried we were going to die. And so I started a website during COVID. Because people had so many questions and I was like, Well, here’s some answers. And then it just took off because it turns out people really like money. They like money a lot. And it turned out that gap in the market that I felt like I didn’t know where to go for help with my money. There were some older people who felt like their advice wasn’t really as relevant anymore. Then there were some young people who I also felt like their advice wasn’t perfect for me. And there’s a few there’s a lot of good folks out there, but there wasn’t I just I felt a little aggravated. That there wasn’t something that was an obvious nonprofit that had everyone’s back. And the other so WorkMoney started in the pandemic and we took off. And the other thing that we do that’s a little different than the average money advice guru person, is that we understand both that you have to play the hand of cards you’re dealt. And so we have all kinds of resources for people no matter where they are. Are you early in your money life? Are you in retirement? Are you getting towards retirement? Are you trying to figure out how to have more income or lower your costs? Like we have a ton of resources for anybody at any stage. And we also understand that we do have power, just not individually, but collectively. We have some power over how the economy works. There’s decisions about how we set wages and how much health insurers are allowed to raise health insurance costs. And do we invest and how employers are rewarded for investing? In things like retirement pensions and benefits and how much do people individually have to pay for paid leave and why does it cost so much to care for a loved one in the US? There’s a million things that can be determined by the power of a lot of people. And so the idea of WorkMoney is you get the help you need individually, and then also we can be a market. We can bargain for cheaper goods and services. I mean Costco is a great example of how this works. And so I think about WorkMoney getting so large
Renata Bernarde
Wow, okay.
Carrie Joy Grimes
That we can bargain for cheaper things like cell phone plans or insurance plans or whatever. And then I also think about how we use our strength and numbers to make sure that the economic policies benefit you know, Americans of all kinds and, you know, working people. And I think that the best part about us is that we love, love the idea of entrepreneurship. We love the idea that we can invent the things that we want. Like why do I need somebody else to think of a thing? Like if I could think of an idea, why can’t we figure out how to support each other and provide folks the resources and start the kinds of companies that we would want to see? For example, we just launched a service called MoneyFinder. You can go to MoneyFinder. com and check it out. It’s brand new, so we’re still building it. But people can try it and we’ll negotiate your cable, your cell phone, and your internet bills. And this like
Renata Bernarde
Wow.
Carrie Joy Grimes
Why not? You know, in this economy, we’re going to add a bunch of other kinds of bills we can negotiate down. And I just thought that the idea that there was one organization that had your back that you could count on that would give people of all kinds information that was real and also literally try to put dollars back in people’s pockets just seemed like a thing that should exist. And it turns out, lo and behold, six years later here we are and we’re growing like a weed.
Renata Bernarde
This is so exciting. I love that. There will be a link to everything down below. And from that, you decided a book was the next step. Is the book
Carrie Joy Grimes
Yeah, I did.
Renata Bernarde
Is the book trying to sort of serve a different audience or is it for that same sort of membership that you already have, just another resource for them?
Carrie Joy Grimes
Yeah, the book is a way to serve more people, you know, you don’t just have to find us on the internet. It’s called The Joy of Money, which plays on my name, Carrie Joy, so that’s that’s why. And also because joy is what the money is for. And it’s for people of any income level, it’s learning how to structure your financial life to create stability and how to earn more and how to spend less along the way. Like it’s it’s really it’s fun. So the book is meant for anyone who is like sitting in their financial life and they’re like, okay, I want to feel better about my money and I want to probably have more of it. If those are the things that you want, this is the book for you. And it’s funny, I have a few friends who are pretty wealthy people. And I was like, well, you don’t need to read my book. It’s fine. And they re and they did anyway, because we’re close. And they said, no, I had no idea how much. I just hadn’t even thought about my relationship with money. And I hadn’t thought about why. And it’s just kind of back to your point, Renata, about when people have to strip back their budget and then they find that they can live that way. It’s another way of saying like you get to understand your relationship to money and wealth and what really and what and like what the things are that do bring you joy or just cost you money. And so it’s been I’ve had a really great experience like just listening to people tell me kind of their own money story and their own journey after reading the book. We made the USA Today bestseller list, which we’re pretty proud of. Thanks. It’s it’s pretty cool. It’s pretty cool.
Renata Bernarde
Well done. I love that. That what you just said, the relationship with money, because I think that is something we all need to work on. Everybody, you know. It’s very rare that we find people that have great relationship with money. And it has nothing to do with how much money you have. It’s how you understand money as part of what you need and how that fits into your life and the lifestyle you want to have and how comfortable you feel talking about it as well. I love that.
Carrie Joy Grimes
Yeah, most of us aren’t taught about money. You know, like in my house
Renata Bernarde
No.
Carrie Joy Grimes
Growing up, nobody talked about money. It was just a thing. And then as I left my home, I realized I didn’t know anything about money. And I thought I should know things about money because aren’t we taught the things we should know? And so I felt like there was some secret money thing that other people knew that I wasn’t supposed to know about. And what was really interesting was kind of figuring out in my twenties that wasn’t true and that I could be good at money. And then when I was like, well then I’m just going to be good at money and once I got my act together, it became I don’t know, not quite like a religion, but I got a real fire in my belly about it that it’s a bunch of choices. Now, sometimes those choices are limited because we have different sets of circumstances. But this combination of like you have to do what you can with what you’ve got, and here’s how that can happen. And here’s how we can work together to make it so that we can all succeed and have a retirement we can count on. That feels really important, especially in this moment with AI and the amount of massive technological and economic change that’s coming, making sure that those of us who run companies and who are senior leaders in companies. Have a real say in what comes next for our kids and their kids. Like that feels really important to me. Because I feel like we’re in this moment when I think it is a good time for all of us, both individually and collectively, to be thinking about what is our relationship to money? Like what’s it for? Like what is work for? And right now, like work, contributing to a greater good in the form of my work is really important to me. The ability to contribute, to help people when they need it, but also just not just I run a nonprofit, but I haven’t always run a nonprofit when I was working for other businesses. like that feeling that I’m adding value somewhere was really core to my identity. Also to how we work, And I’ll say that having technology emerge, which may be in very jagged ways, like some pretty a lot over here, but not very much over there that might change our relationship to work. I think there’s never been a time when the leadership and the voices of folks who do work need to be in the decisions that get made about what kind of economy we’re going to have. I feel like now it’s really important for folks to both get their individual money in good shape, save up that cushion, if you need it, go buy the joy of money. You can check it out at Work Money or it’s wherever books are sold. Get your individual money life in shape. And then if you haven’t, I always encourage folks like now is a great time to find some organization that you feel fits your size and shape. Like this is not about partisanship. This isn’t about left and right. This is about right and wrong. And make sure that your voice is in the conversation about what kind of economy we want to have. Because I think we’re about to make a bunch of big decisions about how it’s supposed to look and feel. And I think it’s great to be alive in this time, but it’s also a pretty big responsibility.
Renata Bernarde
I know. I wish your organization all the best. I think it’s such an important one, especially at this time. I mean we’re talking about what happened post pandemic, but right now I think it’s such a pivotal moment as well. In the United States. You know, we have issues with unemployment and it’s such an important time for people to be thinking about their relationship with money. So thank you so much for being on this podcast. Your expertise, as I said before, is so aligned with what my audience needs to hear. So I am delighted that you came on board and you’re welcome to come back anytime. I think you are okay. Okay. We’re going to thank you. Yeah.
Carrie Joy Grimes
Yay, don’t threaten me with a good time, Renata. I really love what you do and I love the normalization of this transition period. I think it’s it’s been normal. We haven’t talked about it a lot. I think it’s about to become a lot more normal for a lot more people. And I just think that what you do just right back at you. I think it’s helpful, it’s necessary, and I think it’s great for folks to know that there are resources out there, that nobody’s alone in this world, and that with their own hard work and the help of a few good folks around them, I think people can navigate through these kinds of job transitions. So thanks for what you do too. It’s pretty great.
Renata Bernarde
Absolutely. My pleasure. Thank you, Carrie. Let’s keep in touch.
Carrie Joy Grimes
Thanks. All right, we will. Thanks. Take good care. Bye.