Episode 315 - Crisis expert Edward Segal maps the first moves leaders should make when something goes wrong, who to call, what to say, how to brief the media, and how to make sure it doesn’t happen again.

Renata Bernarde (00:21)
Edward Segal is a leading voice on crisis management. He’s a senior contributor at Forbes covering leadership and crisis topics. He’s a former Wall Street Journal columnist and the author of a brand new book, The Crisis Casebook Lessons in Crisis Management from the world’s leading brands. He has advised Fortune 500s and he hosts a podcast called The Crisis Management Minute.

We talked today about what actually works when reputations, companies and careers are on the line and how you as a professional can prepare for your own crisis before things go wrong. Now, I know we don’t like to talk about crisis management. I know this because I used to be head of governance and involved in crisis management in several roles I had in my corporate career.

The risk management officer is usually the last person you want to see and they have to come to you and run through, your contingency plans for a crisis that may or may not happen. And because you have more urgent things to do, you don’t want to talk about things that may or may not happen.

But you know what? It’s important. It’s important for us to do that for our careers. The whole coaching process that I go through with my clients includes crisis management. It’s what Edward talks about. It’s not if, it’s when, right? You have to be prepared to think that we will have a career spanning decades and not have crisis along the way.

issues that have been your responsibility or issues that are other people’s responsibilities, but you still need to manage them. You still need to be ready for them. In addition to this episode, I have also recorded one about relationships at work and

more broadly about crisis a few weeks ago when I touched on the astronomer situation and the Nestle situation and those relationships in the workplace to speak more broadly about crisis management and reputational issues. And I also interviewed a journalist and something that ⁓ Edward spoke about in this episode I think links to what she was talking to us in

that episode about being ready in the minute even when you have you don’t have all the information so I want you to go back and if you want to investigate further consider listening to those episodes as well I’ll put the link in the show notes below and of course if you have a big career crisis at the moment and you need further help go to my website I’d love to work with you

Renata Bernarde (03:01)
My listeners are experienced professionals. They

Edward Segal (03:04)
Ahem.

Renata Bernarde (03:05)
that

have experienced crisis in their lives, in their careers, and in the organizations they worked for. So I think that your book is very valuable. Those lessons, I want to go through them from the perspective of job seeking, but also let’s start a bit broader than that.

when do you first notice that a situation is becoming a crisis that is not just a communications hiccup?

Edward Segal (03:34)
Well, my antenna, my radar system, if you will, is very attuned to what can go wrong and what could morph into a major crisis situation. I had firsthand experience ⁓ dealing with this when I was the CEO of the Greater Los Angeles Association of Realtors. And every year we would hold a big event, installation of new officers at the Beverly Hills Hotel in Beverly Hills.

and we signed the contract. I was just new to the job and I was assured everything was fine. So that was one of my first ⁓ documents, legal documents I signed when I became the CEO. And then a few months later, it was called to our attention that the Sultan of Brunei owned the hotel and the Sultan is from a country ⁓ which has very ⁓ anti-gay ⁓

laws and customs and practices. And our membership had a substantial number of gay members. And it was the gay members who brought this to our attention. We would have had a major crisis on our hands if we stayed with that hotel and went through and held our event. And I was insisting to the hotel officials

that because of the anti-gay laws of the, in the country where the hotel owner lived, that we wanted to immediately terminate our contract. We went back and forth, but eventually we were able to terminate the contract and find a better suitable place in the area to hold our installation. And it’s a good thing that we did.

because as time went by more people were concerned about the owner of the hotel and a lot of Hollywood celebrities, Jay Leno and a lot of A-list people at the time ⁓ actually ⁓ urged people to boycott the hotel, don’t do any business there. They ⁓ set up the equivalent of a picket line in front of the hotel. It got a lot of local press coverage. So ⁓ our ability to…

be attuned to things that might go wrong and morph into a crisis ⁓ that really came in handy. And what could have been a major problem was not a problem at all.

Renata Bernarde (06:07)
That’s such an interesting story, how long ago was this?

Edward Segal (06:09)
this was ⁓ about 12 years ago. was a CEO and started there in 2013. I signed the contract in 2014. And it was later that year, I think it was 2014, when all of this became public. And we just took steps to make sure it would not be a problem for us.

Renata Bernarde (06:11)
2000? 12 years ago.

Uh-huh.

Yeah.

Edward, I think I remember that story. I remember that story, linking the Beverly Hills Hotel with the Brunei ⁓ country. And even though I’m in Australia, I’m pretty sure I heard of it. That is such a great story. it shows that taking that ⁓ stance on values and on behalf of your stakeholders is so important. And I can also see how different

organizations and different leaders would handle issues differently. And what do you think is the variable that most predicts how one will handle a situation like that? Do you think it’s leadership or is it ⁓ culture or how vocal the stakeholders are? I’m curious to know what you see.

Edward Segal (07:31)
Well, depending upon the crisis, it’s

⁓ all of the above or a little bit of each of the above. Sometimes it’s the age of the company that might make them more or less susceptible to a crisis. Why? Because an older organization might have more experience under its belt and be fully cognizant of the issues that could turn into a crisis. By contrast, startup companies or younger companies,

Renata Bernarde (07:38)
Yeah.

Edward Segal (08:00)
may not have that experience, might be new to the industry or the profession, and they’re usually often more focused on making their product or service a success and less concerned about what could go wrong that would cause a crisis. Sometimes it’s the age and background of the CEO and senior staff that can be the determining factor. That’s because an older, more senior CEO

is likely to have, ⁓ as I said, been around the block a few times and would have seen and noticed ⁓ situations that either became a crisis with their organization or ⁓ they pay attention to what’s in the news and they see how it affected their competitors or others. Compare that to a younger inexperienced CEO who might be just more focused in on making the company a success.

and is less concerned about ⁓ what could go wrong. Also, the ⁓ size of the company could be ⁓ a determining factor and where it’s located. In the United States, for example, companies that are in flood prone areas are more likely to have a flood related crisis. If they’re in a very snowy area, there could be power outages because of the weather.

Renata Bernarde (09:08)
Mm.

Edward Segal (09:24)
If a company has only one location and they have a crisis, that could be much easier for them to respond to as opposed to a company with lots of offices or in one country or multinational and they have dozens or more ⁓ facilities in dozens of countries, which can make it even more challenging. So depending upon the size of the company, the industry it’s in, where it’s located,

Renata Bernarde (09:45)
Hmm.

Edward Segal (09:53)
the age of the CEO, the experience of the CEO and the age of the company. Those are all factors to take into consideration and can be determining factors as to whether, when and how they might have a crisis and how they could respond to it.

Renata Bernarde (10:07)
Yeah, okay. I’d love to share with you a story from my work experience and get your views. Back in 2004, and this is very rare for Australia, a student went on campus here in Melbourne with a gun and threatened staff and threatened students. I know that this is quite common in the US, but we have very strict gun laws in Australia. And that was, you know, completely out of the blue for us. ⁓

I found out because my father called me immediately, he saw it on CNN and he thought I was on campus, but I used to work and study in a different university. But ⁓ coincidentally, a few months later, I got a job at this university where the shooting took place. And a few months after that, I was promoted to head of governance for the faculty of business, which is the biggest faculty. Now,

Australia is a very interesting country where education is an export business. we have sometimes 50 % of students on campus are internationals. So a crisis like that of having a shooting incident in a university as big as this one, this is the biggest one in Australia ⁓ with several campuses.

is very commercially, it’s a big crisis for them because students may opt out of going to that institution. So they hired a former cop, female ⁓ former police officer to be the security person and I was her point of contact in the faculty where the shooting took place.

⁓ I learned a lot in terms of crisis management and contingency plans from doing that job, Edward. I think everybody learned a lot very quickly because it had only been less than a year. ⁓ And we started implementing a very interesting and not very common in Australia crisis management plans. What would you have done in that situation? What would you…

I don’t know the details, but I would love for you to go through some of the sort of a playbook of what to implement after an incident so that it doesn’t repeat itself.

Edward Segal (12:29)
Well, step one after the incident is over, take a look back. ⁓ Do essentially an audit or forensic analysis or, you know, an after action report and find out what happened, in what order. How often is something like this going to happen? You say this is rare, so maybe this is just a one-off. But it’s important to find out how things unfolded once there

there was awareness that there was a gunman on campus. How long did it take for school officials or campus security to notify the students and the faculty and their parents? How were people notified? Technology is a lot more faster and advanced now than it was then. These days, it’s not unusual for colleges and universities.

to have instant notifications and for parents and the students and faculty to be aware of an incident. What were people told to do when they were aware of the shooting or a shooter? Was there a shelter in place warning? How did people know when it was safe to come out from the dormitories or office buildings? So communication is really important as a crisis unfolds.

Renata Bernarde (13:51)
Hmm.

Edward Segal (13:55)
And it’s absolutely critical to keep everyone who’s affected by the crisis informed. And that will often include, of course, the public or the family members who are affected by the crisis. And then going forward, looking backwards, what was done right, what was done wrong, and what could be done in the future to help prevent a similar crisis, a similar shooting from happening? And how do we take best advantage, full advantage of technology?

to make sure people are immediately aware of ⁓ the situation and ⁓ are safe and are told when the event is over and they know when it’s okay to come out.

Renata Bernarde (14:37)
And in that first ⁓ hour, you know, that things happen and go wrong, what’s said publicly is really important. Not even the first hour, the first day, you know, that there are so many incidents these days of cyber security issues. mean, only this month I received several messages between my husband and I of our

data and our private data being made available in the dark web. ⁓ And we can see the difference between how organizations tackle it. Andre was just showing me this morning, one organization took, I mean, we’re recording this at the end of October, the incident happened at the beginning of September, it said in the letter. So it took them this long to let us know. Whereas there are other situations where, I mean, with my… ⁓

The Qantas Airlines here in Australia had a similar incident and it was much faster ⁓ how they communicated even though it wasn’t perfect. So that first hour checklist is also very important. Do you have a playbook for that?

Edward Segal (15:52)
Well, the first hour is important, but because of things move so very quickly thanks to social media, what used to be called the golden hour or the golden day, now it’s really the golden minute or the golden few seconds. Because unless you’re monitoring what’s happening and other people find out about it and post it on internet social media platforms, you’re going to be immediately behind the eight ball and playing catch up.

Renata Bernarde (15:57)
Yeah.

Edward Segal (16:21)
So the saying is, if you see something or if you hear something, do something. Don’t let other people control the narrative. Don’t let other people other than yourself get the word out. And you need to position yourself as the expert, as a controlling authority, and keep people posted as it’s appropriate.

Renata Bernarde (16:45)
Yeah, what I love about what you just said is that we can use that for organizations in crisis and we can also use that for individuals in crisis. So if there has been some sort of issue at work, ⁓ you need to control the narrative as well of your own situation. And I think that that’s such an important thing. ⁓ I also want to talk to you about media training. I don’t know if it’s the same in the US, but here in Australia,

There’s really a lack of media training in C-suite executives. Do you find that it’s the same in the US?

Edward Segal (17:20)
Yes, not everyone who has a role in a company or organization should have media training because they don’t know when, if, or how there’s going to be a crisis and what they should say and how they should see it if contacted by reporters. So I’ve trained probably hundreds if not thousands of senior executives either in person or virtually over the years.

to help share with them the best practices for dealing with reporters. Essentially the good and the bad, and sometimes the incredibly ugly ways ⁓ CEOs and other officials have dealt with reporters. And when I do the training, sometimes the executives or their staff will do a good job giving a statement about what happened with ⁓ a mock crisis. But when they’ll often get

trip themselves up is when I start asking questions. And I’ve seen a lot of that in the real world. The executives can essentially create more of a crisis for themselves and their companies by how they respond to a question in a very negative way, or in such a way that invites the reporter to ask even more questions and the CEO or senior staff, get something wrong.

and what they get wrong is often what is what makes the news, not their initial statement about the crisis. So I’m a great believer in media training and not just do it once, they should be done on a very regular basis. And just importantly, just to finish my point, it’s as important for everyone at a company or organization to know what the media relations policy is. Reporters will often try to…

Renata Bernarde (18:54)
Yes.

Edward Segal (19:15)
contact someone on the staff or a union member and not bother about calling to the C-Suite and get a negative comment or something that’s very damaging just from a member of the staff. So when a crisis happens, staff needs to know who’s in charge and who’s authorized to deal with the media.

Renata Bernarde (19:27)
Yeah.

That’s a good call. And who is the spokesperson who should be officially the key contact? I agree. There has been, like I said, several interesting case studies recently. The one that comes to mind that I shared with you earlier was the Boeing 2024 or 2025 troubles. And what do you think is I mean, think a lot of people are aware of that because

Many of us fly and that’s such an interesting story when it’s in the news and it’s about an aircraft and you’re about to travel and you want to know that you’re safe. it’s of much more interest to people. But what do you think is the lesson ⁓ in communication versus operations and equality and that sort of internal functions? ⁓

fighting with each other, suppose internally, I’m assuming, if you were coaching an executive in that company, what would you tell them to say differently to avoid the negative press that they have received?

Edward Segal (20:48)
First, I would not blame anybody. I would not point any figures. ⁓ As soon as the, I think it was the window at the door of that Boeing jet ⁓ flew off, was probably on the news about the crisis was on news media probably before any executives had a chance to respond to it. And so immediately the executives in a situation like this,

are placed at a disadvantage and they’ve got the reporters hounding them for an immediate response. Meanwhile, the company officials are just trying to figure out what the heck happened. How can we say anything until we know what happened? And that’s a mistake. You don’t have to know what happened in order to say something. I highly recommend what we call a holding statement where you have a statement prepared.

Renata Bernarde (21:37)
Mm.

Edward Segal (21:42)
Just really simple and basic without getting into the details of what happened. We are aware there was a situation. We are investigating the matter and we will keep people informed as appropriate and as we learn more about what happened. Simple, basic. the world know you’re aware of something. And then as you learn more about what happened, you know, in journalism, we write our stories with the five W’s and the H. The who,

Renata Bernarde (22:12)
Mmm.

Edward Segal (22:12)
the

what, the when, the where, the why, and the how. And those are the same things you need to find out about for any crisis. Depending upon the crisis, of course, you may not know everything at once. You might know some things before others. What you find out immediately might be changed depending upon what you learn more about it. But keep those five Ws and the H in mind at all time and keep the public

keep the stakeholders, keep everyone who’s affected by the crisis, keep them informed as you know what’s happened. Because as I mentioned earlier, if you’re not first out of the gate sharing the information or what you know about the crisis, other people will be more than glad to fill that vacuum. You will lose control of the narrative. And if you’re not correcting misinformation or disinformation immediately, the longer it sits there,

the more likely it is people will assume it’s true and when you try to correct the record it’s going to be very hard if not impossible to correct those inaccuracies. So when a crisis strikes don’t wait get out there immediately for what you know and update the information as appropriate.

Renata Bernarde (23:28)
Yeah, it’s visibility as well, isn’t it, Edward? Being visible and being easy to reach.

Edward Segal (23:36)
Don’t hide. ⁓ Don’t hide behind a corporate spokesperson also. Sometimes depending upon the nature and extent of the crisis, the public and the media, they don’t want to hear from a spokesperson, they want to hear from the CEO. ⁓ So don’t hide behind the desk. Don’t hide behind the titles. Get out there and if you’re, the more public you are as a CEO, the more likely it is that you can provide confidence and comfort to people.

Renata Bernarde (23:37)
Yeah.

Yes.

Edward Segal (24:05)
to know that you’re on top of it, you know what’s happening, and you’re in charge of responding to the crisis, even if you’re not. But at least have that public face and give them people at comfort level.

Renata Bernarde (24:16)
Okay, all right. Now let’s talk about ⁓ crisis management from that micro level of a professional’s career. ⁓ I work a lot, as you know, with ⁓ professionals that are going through transition. They’re usually very ⁓ upset with their current workplace and want to move on, or it’s just time, there’s nothing wrong with the workplace and they want to move on. But then most of my clients…

were laid off or left for one reason or another, and they consider that to be a crisis in their career. That crossroads or that anxiety of not having a job is pretty much a career crisis. I like what you say that it’s not if, it’s when. And with that motto in mind, what should professionals do to their careers to become crisis ready without being

in sort of fight and flight mode all the time.

Edward Segal (25:17)
In terms of their own career, I think every professional, no matter what industry or profession they’re in or what level in the company, they should have their own personal crisis management plan. And as a public service for your viewers and listeners, I’d be glad to make that plan available that they can customize given their particular circumstances. But the big picture is that they should be aware of everything that could go wrong.

in their profession and their career or their industry and take steps as is appropriate to ⁓ inoculate themselves if you will from being blamed from a crisis. So they have to be sure they’re not doing anything for what they say or what they do, the decisions that they make, what they say on social media, the memos that they write. They have to be extra careful.

that nothing that they say or do is ever going to be perceived as contributing to a crisis. But also, if they see something that might be a crisis or could turn into a crisis, they should immediately write down what they know, when they knew it, how they knew it, and who they tell about it, because they don’t want to become the scapegoat for a crisis that they didn’t cause. But after a crisis is over,

It’s not unusual for people to point fingers and look for blame. The phrase is, heads will roll. Often accountability demands it, or at least the internal politics or the public wants somebody to blame. It’s a very human ⁓ reaction after a crisis. And your listeners and viewers have to make sure that when a crisis happens, they’re not going to be blamed for it.

Renata Bernarde (27:03)
Mm.

Edward Segal (27:10)
if they didn’t cause it. they had a role in it and somehow, then I think they should be public, not public, but at least forthcoming and let the powers that be at their company or organization let them know what they did. They might have caused the crisis. Why? Because disclosure and transparency is critical. If somebody knows something about a crisis and they’re not let people know about it, they could be… ⁓

Renata Bernarde (27:34)
Yeah.

Edward Segal (27:39)
accused of a cover-up which would just make matters worse and create another crisis for their career.

Renata Bernarde (27:46)
You know, I remember Edward, one of the first consultations that was booked ⁓ many years ago when I started coaching, people can just go to my website and book a one hour with me. And it was a couple and it was to workshop. They needed somebody to mediate the discussion. One wanted to follow a political career and the other one had a very big social platform. they want, and you know, they were concerned about

how that would play out in the political career of one of the partners if they continue to be very vocal and advocate for issues and how would that work? I loved the idea of helping them. I would love to get access to your checklist if you have one that you could share. If it’s in your book, I’ll put a link in the show notes as well for your book below. But I think that that is such an important thing for people to anticipate issues and have career planning days.

either by themselves or if they have a partner with their partners. Because if one wants to have an expat career and work overseas and the other one wants to stay put, that is a conversation that needs to be have early on in the piece.

Edward Segal (29:02)
Yes, definitely. In the crisis management plan, and I have the template that’s available on my website at ⁓ crisiscasebook.com, I have several dozen categories of information that can be used by your ⁓ audience to help ⁓ at least take the initial steps and to customize it for their industry or profession. One of the things that increasingly is causing a crisis for lots of people, no matter what industry or profession,

Renata Bernarde (29:09)
Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Edward Segal (29:33)
And that’s AI. It has already started to make many jobs irrelevant. And your audience needs to be aware as to how the latest technology, whether it’s AI today or something else in the future, is going to affect them and take steps now to protect their career, learn the new technology. Don’t automatically assume that it’ll work against you.

Renata Bernarde (29:35)
Mm-hmm.

Edward Segal (30:01)
do what I call a career jujitsu. How can you turn something that might be bad to your advantage and use it to help yourself? So this goes back to what I said earlier about being aware of anything that could go wrong in your career and certainly increasingly technology is one of those ⁓ risk trigger factors.

Renata Bernarde (30:09)
Yeah.

Yes, yes. One of the things that you said before in relation to organizations that I think is also very important as part of that planning is, and it may be that, you can take your time. I don’t think you should take too long of a time, but you can take your time to get the narrative right as to why you left an organization or what happened, you know, because you had a fight with your boss and you need to have your narrative right. ⁓

And that’s something that I work with clients as well. Do you have any advice on that ⁓ difference between truth and speed? I find that sometimes people want to take their time to get the perfect narrative when in fact they need to go out and be a bit more quicker in providing some information to people that are curious or have an interest in their careers.

Edward Segal (31:16)
Don’t wait. Be as truthful as you can, but don’t wait. Take a reality check now and on a regular basis as to your standing in the company or organization, what you’re doing right, what you could be doing better. ⁓ If you’ve gone through performance reviews and can brag about, you know, high marks that you got for your performance. Also, it’s very important to keep track of your accomplishments and your wins.

What are you part of a team that got a major contract or made a client very happy? What was your role? What did you do? If you’re responsible for bringing a new business, keep a running tally of the new business that you brought in, how much it is brought in to the company for revenue or profits. And again, it depends upon your role at the company, but find ways to put yourself in the best possible light.

do a reality check on a regular basis about your standing in the organization and what are the threats or what are the risks to your career that you should be aware of. Whether it’s technology, whether it’s from a competitor, maybe someone you don’t get along well with in that same organization, maybe it’s a new hire that might be gunning for your job, you know, it really depends. But I think you need to have a 360 degree view as to what you’re doing right, what could be done better.

and where the next threat might be coming to your career.

Renata Bernarde (32:49)
Yeah. And what I’m curious, you’ve had a long career, I’ve had a long career, I know I failed several times and learned hard way and sort of sometimes didn’t follow my own advice. Do you have maybe examples of things that looking back you would have done differently?

Edward Segal (33:10)
yeah, I was approached several years ago by a well-known celebrity chef. He won one of those celebrity chef competitions on television ⁓ that helped him to open up a ⁓ chain of very successful restaurants and things were going well until ⁓ women on his staff started making allegations that he was abusing them sexually and filed lawsuit against him.

He soon approached me for help on what he should do and how he should do it. And I was able to, based on what I knew at the time, lay out some strategies and tactics and techniques. And he said, I’ll get back to you. I need to talk to some attorneys first. Well, the attorneys he talked to talked him out of dealing with a crisis management expert such as myself. They insisted.

that they’re the lawyers, this is a legal issue and it’s not a PR issue. Well, the whole thing blew up in his face and ⁓ the bad publicity, there was lawsuits back and forth, but it was really the bad publicity that I could have helped with and deflect if he had come with me and followed my advice. ⁓ Months later, his ⁓ restaurant chains were shut down. He was in bankruptcy.

a local ⁓ magazine had his face on the cover, but his face was covered with an egg. This guy literally and figuratively had an egg on his face for how the crisis was handled by his attorneys on his behalf. And then later he actually told me, Siegel, I should have gone with you. Going with the lawyers was not the best way. So the lessons I learned is if you know you’re right,

you know you could help, don’t take no for an answer. I am now much more insistent, much more persistent when I talk to clients about the value of my services, the value of my advice, and while lawyers always can have an important part in managing a crisis or preventing a crisis, I don’t think they should be in charge of managing a crisis. That’s the lessons I learned.

Renata Bernarde (35:27)
Mm-hmm.

And if somebody is listening to us now and they have a crisis on their hand and they need to act immediately after finishing this episode, what’s the first thing that you think they need to do?

Edward Segal (35:40)
Call me. Go to my

website or if you can’t reach me, read my book. It’s available on an ebook. Reach me, contact me. I would ask them to do this in the meantime though, if they can’t reach me, they can’t get the book. Find out what happened. Again, the five W’s in the H. The who, the what, the when, the where, the why, and the how. What can they do to stop the crisis? What can they do to make things right?

Renata Bernarde (35:45)
Okay.

Yeah.

Edward Segal (36:10)
and what can they do to ⁓ avoid a repeat of the crisis. And don’t wait, do something, and the longer you wait, the worse things will get for your crisis.

Renata Bernarde (36:22)
Okay. Thank you so much for coming today to talk to us about this topic. I think it’s very ⁓ aligned with the way that professionals need to think about their careers, but also if they are in jobs, what they need to do if a crisis happens at work. There are, like you said, crises that can come from AI. I mentioned cybersecurity. I’ve done an episode recently about…

⁓ relationships at work, based on what happened at Astronomer and Nestle. So I will put a link to that episode ⁓ in the show notes. Edward, thank you so much for being here today with me.

Edward Segal (37:02)
You’re welcome. Enjoy the conversation. Thank you again.