Episode 313 - Employment attorney Jessica Childress is back, unpacking what “toxic” really means at work, and how to decide if it’s time to stay or go.

Renata Bernarde (00:01)
Today, we’re talking about one of the hardest but most important career decisions that many professionals face, leaving a toxic workplace. Too often people feel guilty or shame when they consider walking away from a job that’s damaging their wellbeing. But leaving doesn’t mean failure. It can be an empowering act of self-preservation. And to guide us through this conversation, I’m joined once again,

by Jessica Childress, award-winning employment law attorney and author of Peace, Leaving a Toxic Workplace on Your Own Terms. Jessica is the managing attorney of the Childress firm in Washington, DC, where she represents individuals and organizations in cases involving discrimination and other workplace disputes.

She has been featured in Forbes, Newsweek, Entrepreneur, Essence and the Huffington Post and has been recognized as a Washington DC Super Lawyers Rising Star for six consecutive years. So we are in good hands. In this episode, Jessica will share how to recognize when it’s time to move on, the legal and personal considerations involved and how to leave a toxic workplace on your own terms.

If you’ve ever felt trapped in a job that drains you, this conversation will give you clarity, confidence and tools to protect your peace. Now, I’m also going to leave below in the show notes a link to our previous episode with Jessica from a year ago. You might find that really informative as well. And I’m also going to add a link to my website in case you need my extra support.

if you’re going through a challenging time at work.

Renata Bernarde (02:15)
Jessica, it’s wonderful to have you back on the podcast, by the way, so thank you.

Jessica Childress (02:21)
Thank you so much for having me, Renata. It’s really a pleasure to talk to you again.

Renata Bernarde (02:25)
⁓ good. Look, you are such an important guest for the type of show that we have. And I want people to potentially go back and listen to your first episode. I’ll have the link in the episode show notes if anyone wants to do that. But let’s start by talking about the work that you do protecting employees’ rights. What took you to that type of work in the first place, Jessica?

Jessica Childress (02:56)
Well, Renata, I have always loved being an advocate. I was one of those kids on the playground, and I may have shared this with you during our last recording, but I was always standing up for others on the playground, in the classroom. I was on the debate team in high school. So I really loved advocating for people, people when they could not find their own voices. And as an employment attorney, that is essentially what I do.

I am the voice of people who are going through some of the most challenging times in their life. If you can think about your workplace, that’s the place that sustains your life. And it’s one of the places that you spend the most time. And so when your job is threatened or when you don’t feel comfortable in a place where you’re spending

a substantial amount of time every single day, being away from your family, being away from your hobbies, from the things that you love, and that place is now bringing you pain or mental turmoil. It’s really hard to know what to do in those scenarios. So as an employment attorney, my role is to be an advocate. And in many cases, I am a listener and I encourage people to

stand up for themselves, to advocate for themselves. And we’ll go over this, I’m sure, we go along in our conversation. But sometimes I have to tell people there is no legal claim here, but I still have to encourage people who find themselves in situations that they need to leave at work. And so my job is to be a cheerleader in many ways.

Renata Bernarde (04:43)
Yeah. And that’s really what we’re doing today, basically picking up from where we left off. So the last time you came on board, we talked about all the legal opportunities that you could ⁓ work on to ⁓ find solutions for workplace issues that you were facing. But today you wanted to come back on the podcast to talk about toxic workplaces and not necessarily workplaces where there are legal

⁓ pathways, just toxicity in general. And before we talk about the work that you’re doing, you’ve practiced law in government, in big law, and now you have your own firm. What lessons or personal experience have you had personally with toxic workplaces?

Jessica Childress (05:35)
So yes, Renata, I have worked in the best of companies and then I’ve worked in places that have felt very toxic and have been toxic for me. And when I was an intern in college, I worked somewhere and I felt very intimidated by my boss. I felt that my boss was very sarcastic in their remarks and perhaps the boss had no idea.

that they were portraying themselves this way or coming off this way, but it felt very toxic to me. It was very hard to ask questions because I felt intimidated just by their demeanor. ⁓ As an attorney, I have worked with supervisors that I thought were extremely toxic and hard to, again, ask questions. And that’s when I knew this isn’t the place for me because I can’t grow here. It’s intimidating. There are colleagues that are gossiping about each other.

in places that just did not feel like a place that I could be the best version of my professional self because of the toxic work environment. So in those scenarios, those were not places that where I felt anything illegal was going on. As an employment lawyer, I know the difference. And in those scenarios, even though those scenarios weren’t unlawful, hostile work environments,

the difference was really marginal. There was no significance in that difference of feeling because I could imagine that if something was happening because of a protected class, which is illegal, still the feeling of toxicity still would have been there. And that feeling emotionally likely would have been very similar. And so I felt that in those environments, it was important for me to determine, am I going to pivot?

And for a college job, it’s easy to pivot because that’s not my long-term career. But as an attorney, right, and working in a toxic work environment, it’s harder because I’m older. I have people relying on me. My lifestyle is different. And so it’s hard. And I realized that as a professional, as someone who advocates for people every day in similar circumstances, I realized how hard it is to determine

when you’re going to make that move to leave.

Renata Bernarde (08:01)
Yes. So now as somebody with ⁓ that legal background who has mostly helped people deal with legal issues in their workplace, how are you now supporting people that are in toxic workplaces that don’t have legal issues attached to them?

Jessica Childress (08:28)
Well, my role is limited in that regard when someone calls me and they undergo a consultation and I listen to the facts of their matter. There’s not so much I can do at the point when we’re conducting a consultation. I have to be honest and let them know, give them my honest professional judgment and assessment about the facts of their case. And the law is very formulaic in order to have

Renata Bernarde (08:39)
Mm.

Jessica Childress (08:55)
a wrongful termination in order to prove a wrongful termination, there’s a limited subset of activities which constitute unlawful actions. So that behavior, if you’re terminated because of your race or your sex or pregnancy or a protected class or another protected class that’s protected by state or federal law in the United States, then that’s a possible discrimination claim that’s viable in court.

If you’re terminated because you have reported unlawful conduct, that could be a possible retaliation claim. That could be a possible case in court. But if you’re terminated because your boss just doesn’t like your attitude for no other reason than that, they just don’t like your attitude, unfortunately, that’s not unlawful. If you’re terminated because you and your boss had a difference of opinion on your performance,

⁓ based on a project, that’s not unlawful. Your boss can be the rudest person ever, the most sarcastic person ever. They can decide that they do not want to invite you to any company events, no lunches, ⁓ they could talk over you at every meeting, but if they don’t do that because of your protected class or because you’ve raised some issue of unlawful behavior,

unfortunately, even though that environment feels really hard to work in, even though that environment feels very toxic, I have to be honest with the person on the other end of the phone and say, I’m sorry, but, and I understand, I understand how horrible those incidents must feel, but I don’t see a legal claim. And I think it does, I think it’s important for a person to hear that, that

Renata Bernarde (10:47)
Yes.

Jessica Childress (10:48)
Yes, this is wrong, but the law is what the law is. And the law in the United States, there’s ⁓ a court case that’s called Ancale. And the late Justice Scalia, ⁓ the Supreme Court Justice Scalia said that the Title VII law, it’s our Civil Rights Act, does ⁓ not prohibit uncivil behavior. It’s not a workplace civility code.

And it’s important to remember that. And I often say that during consultations that the law is not a civility code. So the law does not require civility. Unfortunate.

Renata Bernarde (11:29)
Yeah. I think that this, I mean, I’m assuming that this is the reason why you wrote your book about toxic workplaces, because there’s just so much that the law can’t do for you, for the employee in that situation. And in your book, you say that leaving the workplace on your own terms ⁓ is a

a powerful act. ⁓ What did you mean by that? And how can people do that in a way that is safe for them to do so?

Jessica Childress (12:08)
Well, it’s important to remember that you have the agency in most cases to leave. You have the right to leave unless you are subject to a to an employment agreement. ⁓ Most employees are not subject to employment agreements. They’re at will. They can leave at any time for any reason with or without notice. Unfortunately, so many people don’t believe they have the agency to leave.

And that agency determination, it’s a process. You have to think about other people who are relying on you, your own lifestyle. You may have health conditions that do require you to, or that necessitate that you stay. But even with those external considerations, you still ultimately have the choice. And so determining when it’s time,

to leave if you have not been terminated from your position, determining how much of a toll the workplace is taking on you and then making that decision that you’re ready to leave, that you can find new employment, whether that is self-employment, whether that is with another organization, that is a huge act of power because if you’ve been working at a place, especially if you’ve been working at a place for many years, that’s a huge part of your identity.

And I don’t think you realize how much of your identity your job is until you are faced with the decision of whether to stay or not, because you have to know who are you when you leave? Are your skills still there? What have you developed? What strengths and weaknesses do you have? But what power are you taking away with you when you leave? Or has the job itself taken away your power? And hopefully that’s not the case, but

Renata Bernarde (13:55)
Yeah.

Jessica Childress (14:01)
There are many scenarios in which people do feel like they have no more power because they have been worn down through that process of working through toxicity.

Renata Bernarde (14:14)
Yes, I see that a lot, Jessica, in the work that I do. ⁓ When people have, they have withstood the toxic workplaces for sometimes decades and then they are out of that workplace for reasons that usually has to do with restructures and mess layoffs and such. And they have just that built in ⁓ understanding of the workplace.

based on where they’ve worked and then they decide that I don’t want to be in corporate anymore. I’m gonna have my own business. Whereas I would, as a coach, encourage them to give it a go, give it another go. You may not know this, but that workplace is not normal. And there will be other workplaces where you will be a better fit, where your values will align more, where you have better bosses and colleagues and so forth.

So I see that a lot, know, people that just ⁓ understand the workplaces and generalize it based on what they went through. ⁓ The thing that also I see happening as a buildup to that is that as professionals, we tend to normalize everything and normalize the microaggressions that we struggle with every day and the poor management.

and poor leadership that we’re experiencing. And then when that sort of becomes really harmful to us, it becomes unbearable. We just explode or implode and all of a sudden we need to leave immediately. And I like that this episode is coming out in October because my busiest time is in December.

And the reason why I’m so busy in December is that that’s usually the time people burn out completely and they come to me and say, I’m going to resign from my job. I can’t stand it anymore. So maybe you could help me identify what are the signs that your workplace is not normal. Your workplace is toxic and it’s going to be unbearable over time if you try to withstand it. Do you have.

sort of a list that you can go through with us.

Jessica Childress (16:41)
I do Renata and you just hit the nail on the head when you discuss your clients who think that their workplaces are normal and typically they don’t realize that those workplaces are abnormal until they talk to a coach or a therapist or an attorney to say no that’s not okay because I can still say as an attorney it might not be illegal but it’s not okay what they’re doing and so some signs and I have a checklist

or just a list of items to consider in peace, the e-course and the e-book regarding signs to look for to show that your workplace is toxic. And one of those signs is your colleagues, they’re constantly gossiping. They’re rude to each other. You are afraid to talk to your boss. Your boss isn’t available for you to ask questions. ⁓ You are not included in workplace events. You are left off of emails.

you are not being paid fairly. So those are just a few of the signs, but there are a host of signs that your workplace is toxic. There’s also an individual assessment that you have to do to determine, there simply behaviors that are occurring? Are your colleagues, are they sensitive to your extracurricular obligations, your family obligations? What is your work-life balance? Those are things that some people are able to…

have lives in which they give 99.9 % of their time to their workplace and they’re totally okay with that. But some people feel like that is a toxic workplace.

Renata Bernarde (18:21)
Yeah, yeah. Now I agree. The thing that I see happening a lot is when people go through these situations and they don’t know how to protect themselves. So if they reach out to me, the first thing I tell them is, let’s start documenting things. Let’s start writing things down.

You know, let’s make sure that you have your receipts if you need them in the future. And let’s find ⁓ besides me as your coach, who else can you talk to? Do you have a buddy at work or a mentor at work or is there ⁓ somebody that you can reach out for? And one of the difficulties that I have as a coach is recommending them to talk to HR or human resources because

I never know for sure if that’s going to be a good thing or a bad thing. Some companies have great HR support and some it can really backfire. What is your experience when it comes to dealing with HR in those toxic work environments?

Jessica Childress (19:38)
So HR, it’s important to know what their role is as an employee who is reporting. HR, number one, an employee should report misconduct that they experience at work. That’s a way to protect themselves. Understanding that HR has a specific obligation to do specific things with that information. HR has to investigate. They have a legal obligation to investigate allegations of misconduct, of

Renata Bernarde (19:44)
Mm.

Jessica Childress (20:06)
unlawful behavior. They are not necessarily your advocate. So that’s something to remember. They are objective, or they’re supposed to be objective personnel who’s protecting the best interests of the company. there is no expectation. Employees should not have an expectation of privacy or confidentiality in those exchanges with HR.

because HR legally has an obligation to take the information that they receive from a reporting employee. If that employee even casually says, I’m having an issue with my boss, my boss said this, that’s when the antennae of HR is going to go up and they’re supposed to act on that information appropriately, depending on what’s said in that exchange. So even if HR is your best friend,

HR in the HR role wearing the HR hat has to act accordingly. And so it is important to report to HR and document that report because those reports could be the basis of a retaliation claim depending on what’s exchanged with HR. If you are engaging in what’s called protected activity in the United States, if you are reporting an incident of

⁓ discrimination or harassment or a hostile work environment that’s protected activity and then anything that happens to you after that if it’s an adverse action meaning a termination demotion a decrease in your job responsibilities that could be the basis of a retaliation claim so it’s important to document an email form which is really the best form or

even if it’s an oral exchange memorializing that conversation in writing, preferably in email, so that you know what exchanges have happened with HR. And so HR is not a bully, but HR is not necessarily an advocate for the employee because they’re protecting the best interest of the company. And they do, I think,

Renata Bernarde (22:20)
Mm.

Jessica Childress (22:22)
the misconception is that everything you say to HR is confidential. And that’s not necessarily the case. They may have to talk to your supervisor about the things that you’ve disclosed to them, even if you believe that you made that exchange and that disclosure confidentially. So then if your supervisor comes back to you and says, I heard this happened or HR told me this happened.

You may feel betrayed, but HR was actually performing their job. So that is a realistic expectation of HR. Once you know their role, you can take away any misconceptions of a belief of an expectation of privacy, because that’s just not what they, know, legally, they cannot keep everything that you say confidential because they have to act on it.

Renata Bernarde (23:13)
Yes, no, I agree with you 100%. ⁓ I want to talk about ⁓ leaving the job, but before we get there, I want to talk about how to stay because I don’t want people listening to think, ⁓ yes, of course, you know, it’s easy for you to say just leave the job. ⁓ That is usually not the message that I have been sending with my podcast episode, especially the ones that I’ve done.

solo, I talk a lot about how to survive difficult workplaces and how to stay at your horrible job. I think I even have an episode that has that title, How to Stay. And before your book, I’ve been informed by two other books. I talk about them a lot and I recommend people reading them. Now I have to recommend yours plus the other two. And the other two are ⁓ Working with Assholes. I don’t know if you’ve

Heard about that one. I really liked that the title is very catchy, but very good. And the other one is working with monsters and that’s an Australian book. I’m in Australia and both books really have different chapters for different types of difficult people, right? There are difficult people that can be just like you and me. know, there are some days where we are difficult. There’s something that happened and we’re a bit, you know, not ⁓ at our best at work.

all the way to the sociopaths and people that are just ⁓ 100 % all the time, bullies and terrible to their employees. So ⁓ surviving in those environments means protecting yourself emotionally and sometimes even starting that financial… ⁓

safety net to allow you to leave, right? Can you think of other things that you can do as you stay in the work whilst sort of thinking about leaving?

Jessica Childress (25:18)
Absolutely. So again, you hit the nail on the head with planning. don’t taking a jump immediately is unrealistic for most people for several reasons and it’s important to remember that the process of working in that toxic work environment will require a lot of internal reflection a lot of boundary building it’s working with a coach and a mental health professional is important

because you have to learn patterns of perhaps not having boundaries, and learning how to build boundaries. And that doesn’t come without, I think, some level of coaching and some level of building up ⁓ the courage muscle I like to talk about a lot. Because it’s hard to say, no, this actually is violating a personal boundary, a professional boundary. But.

If you say it, sometimes that checks and really ⁓ stops the bully in their tracks when they know or when they’re told they are bullying or that they are violating a personal or professional boundary. Perhaps no one has ever said anything and they weren’t aware. A lot of people are not self-aware. And so the act of you standing up for yourself could actually be the turning point.

in a relationship with a colleague. So learning professional ways to stop bullying behavior, you stop microaggressions in their tracks. So for example, if you’re in a meeting and someone is constantly speaking over you, that would likely make you feel small and that your contributions, it might make you feel like your contributions are not valuable.

it’s important to understand how to hold space for yourself and say, hey, Joe, hey, ⁓ Beth, I was speaking and I’d like to finish my thought because there are some people who are more introverted, more extroverted and perhaps Joe and Beth just were not aware that they were speaking over someone. Many people do it. I think I’m guilty of it myself and they have no…

Renata Bernarde (27:15)
Mm.

Jessica Childress (27:39)
ill intent, that’s just their communication style. So there are so many personalities that you’ll encounter in a workplace and learning how to reconcile everyone’s personality with your own, it’s an art. some of that reconciliation just requires working with a third party who’s objective. So a career coach is perfect to describe because the career coaches have

they have encountered every workplace personality, it doesn’t always require a conversation with an attorney. A lot of self-reflection and then coaching from people who are familiar, from experts who are familiar with workplace styles and styles of communication, how to make everyone’s workplace communication style congruent is really important because a lot of this is about communication and expectation.

Renata Bernarde (28:15)
Mm.

Yeah,

it’s funny that you’ve focused so much on communications. know, when I was a research assistant, I did a lot of work with academics that were studying ⁓ narrative styles and communication styles in workplaces. And you can actually tell if a workplace is toxic or not based on use of language. for example, the balance between

positive versus negative language and the choices you make. And this goes all the way back to the way that we educate children. You do more positive reinforcement than negative reinforcement. And so those things you can pick up. And the other thing that you can pick up is ⁓ inquiry versus making just statements, black and white statements. Is the language more inquisitive? Are there more questions being asked?

the narrative always that’s the end, you there is no opportunity for us to raise questions here. It just is what it is. So if you start paying attention to that, if you’re unsure about those signs, if a workplace is toxic or not, paying attention to communications and language can lead you to ⁓ a conclusion.

Jessica Childress (29:57)
Absolutely. And just how comfortable people feel after if there is a black and white statement, you know, a period as opposed to a question mark or an ellipsis. How comfortable do people feel jumping in and adding, you know, especially when the leader speaks, you know, is there extra collaboration? Is the leader challenged? ⁓ How does the leader respond to challenge?

those are all other ways to determine, you know, is this workplace, is this team toxic? And many of, and when we talk about staying Renata, sometimes your workplace is just team specific. There are teams that are thriving within organizations and then there are teams that really have a toxic culture, perhaps a toxic boss. I like to think that leadership styles trickle down and the leader really does.

Renata Bernarde (30:29)
Mmm.

Jessica Childress (30:50)
determined culture. And so when you are staying, if you have to stay at the workplace, asking if it’s within your skill set, asking is there another team, asking HR, is there another team that I can go to that would still allow me to grow professionally, that would allow me to exercise my skills, but would allow me to still stay at this organization. Sometimes.

Renata Bernarde (31:16)
Mm.

Jessica Childress (31:17)
especially within smaller organizations because the organization is small, there are not many verticals within the organization in which the employee can work. But that is an option. There’s also the option of allowing or asking that there’s mediation or an ombudsman to mediate any misunderstandings.

Because if there is a misunderstanding, even though I talked about the courage muscle and setting up boundaries, doing that without a third party is extremely difficult. And it’s not always the most comfortable thing to do. And so having a third party who can mediate both sides and even give the employee who feels aggrieved a new perspective because perhaps the supervisor or the colleague did not intend for the statement that was made or the behavior that’s displayed.

Renata Bernarde (31:56)
Mm.

Jessica Childress (32:13)
to ⁓ be perceived the way that it was perceived. And so a third party helping each party come to a mutual understanding and some agreements could be extremely beneficial when an employee decides that they’re going to stay.

Renata Bernarde (32:31)
Yes. All right. ⁓ Okay. So we discussed ⁓ how to stay and we now I’d love for you to tell us how to leave, especially in the US. I mean, I’m in Australia, so we are more protected here ⁓ than the new guys. ⁓ I’d love to hear from you about

Jessica Childress (32:53)
day

Renata Bernarde (33:00)
protecting yourself as you exit an organization.

Jessica Childress (33:04)
Yes, so leaving an organization, there are several things to consider and there’s a checklist in the book piece about how to leave an organization or things to consider when leaving an organization. One, you have to consider your finances. We, some people work because they love every minute of working, but finances are a realistic thing to consider. So you have to consider how long will it take me to get another job?

Do I have a company that I can start and get clients for right away? Typically, the answer is no. Do I have any non-competition provisions or what are called restrictive covenants that prohibit my ability to get a new job? And if so, how long will those restrictive covenants be in effect? Typically, they’re in effect for at least a year. Anything over two years is usually considered unreasonable in the United States.

Do my restrictive covenants prohibit me from working within a certain geographic radius? So do I have to move if I want to work without violating my restrictive covenants? These are just a few examples of things to consider. Is my health care related to my job? Typically, it is. How much will it cost to buy private health care? It’s pretty expensive. If you are living under circumstances in which you feel that you have

been the victim of unlawful conduct, you can request a severance package. And the company may say no. They may have a severance policy that automatically gives you a severance package, whether you’ve experienced unlawful conduct or not. But a severance package, you were requesting through negotiations, if you’re requesting a severance package, it’s important that you document.

and report the reasons why you believe you’re entitled to a severance package for leaving. And I outline that process in the e-book and the e-course, but it’s important to have that chronology to show this is what happened. This is the law that I believe has been violated. This is the amount that I’m asking for. And severance packages, and when I say severance package, it’s usually an amount of money.

an exchange for you waving your claims against the company or releasing the company from any legal claims. That’s the heart of a severance package. The other components of a severance package may be non-monetary. They can include job placement assistance. They can include a favorable or more likely a neutral reference. Companies are pretty hesitant.

hesitant to give favorable references because if you’re leaving under bad circumstances, it’s pretty hard to produce a favorable reference for you unless there’s one person or a few people within the company who would agree to give you a favorable reference letter. But it’s more likely that they would agree to a neutral reference. And a neutral reference is typically the policy of most companies. You can ask for COBRA. It’s Continuing Healthcare Coverage. You can ask for the company to pay your

premiums for COBRA coverage. And that is a huge benefit because if you have dependents that are relying on you for health care, it is very cost prohibitive to leave the company with no health care, especially for your dependents and for you. And so those COBRA premiums being covered is a huge advantage. So there are several items that you can negotiate in a severance package. The package is memorialized in that severance agreement.

where you are signing off that you are waiving your claims against the company. Those severance agreements typically have non-disparagement provisions and also confidentiality provisions that prohibit you from saying anything defamatory against the company that prohibit you from talking about the terms of the agreement. So you are subject to some restrictions if you do accept a severance package.

Renata Bernarde (36:53)
you

Jessica Childress (37:17)
So if you want to go to the press and say things that could be perceived as defamatory, then it’s not a good idea for you to sign a severance agreement and accept a severance privilege.

Renata Bernarde (37:30)
Okay. Okay. For those listening, just so you know, I have several clients, both in Australia and overseas, including the US, that are corporate clients that book me as an outplacement service for when people are laid off. So if you want to engage me, please reach out.

And it usually initiates by the employee asking for my services rather than whatever other offers ⁓ the organization has in place. And usually the answer is yes. So people can be very flexible when it comes to locking in ⁓ outplacement services for their employees. That is great. And one thing that I have noticed, Jessica, when people are really struggling and really keen to leave and

feeling really unsure is that even though, and I said this before and sometimes I get criticized by what I’m about to say, but I’ll say it again, I’m gonna die on this hill I suppose. Yes, I know that ⁓ health insurance is expensive, that you’re gonna be unemployed and not earning any money and that can be really scary. But most of the time with people that work in countries that I work for,

with, so US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, all over Europe, Great Britain, you will survive. You will be okay. ⁓ You have family, you have bit of savings. That’s what savings is for. Savings for those situations. There’s a reason why we put money aside. It’s to actually use them when we need them so that we can get out of difficult situations.

And when I learned this in my personal life, when I experienced ⁓ difficult workplaces and I had zero safety net, no family around me because I had moved to a different country, I thought to myself, I will never be in this situation again. I will find a way of empowering myself so that if I don’t like a workplace or a manager or whatever, same with my husband, we can just walk out the door.

And I made it a mission to have that mentality and have the structure ready if I needed it. And I think that that’s something people need to think about in their corporate careers.

Jessica Childress (39:59)
absolutely, Renata. It’s shocking when a person is terminated. The person is feels totally aggrieved and understandably so. But terminations happen every day in the US. This year, there are unprecedented numbers of layoffs, especially the US experience terminations at the beginning of the year in ⁓ in droves.

And so the feeling of being terminated, it’s one that feels like you have, you your soul is being taken away, but you will survive. I think that that is the takeaway, the end of the story. You will achieve peace. Coming to terms with that peace, you don’t have to leave with no dignity. So you can assert your rights by asking for a severance package and deciding to resolve the matter.

⁓ with the company and if the company agrees, can hopefully get that severance package and both of you leave amicably. No one’s agreeing, the company is not going to agree that anything bad happened. That’s usually a term in a severance agreement. They’re saying, we don’t admit to any unlawful conduct, but we’re settling this matter ⁓ in a friendly way. So each party can basically let bygones be bygones.

But you can also say leaving the company, you can tell HR who the problematic, who you believe to be the problematic leaders, how you feel in a professional way, because do remember that you still have your professional reputation to uphold. So it’s not a good idea to burn bridges when you’re leaving the company. The company may be terminating you because of a pure business decision. And the people who are at the company,

Renata Bernarde (41:24)
Mm-hmm.

Jessica Childress (41:52)
They could later become your colleagues in another organization. You can work for them, they could work for you. So it’s important to leave with dignity. But continuing to understand that a job is temporary. have no obligation unless they are in a contract with you. They have no obligation to employ you. They can wake up tomorrow and say, I’m sorry.

Renata Bernarde (41:55)
Mm.

Jessica Childress (42:19)
This is no longer working. We’re making a business decision to terminate your employment. And it’s a really, it sometimes it feels very callous for the employee because it feels very, it’s just, it’s very surgical. It’s very sterile. However, this happens every single day. And that is something that I like to tell people who call my office that this is a normal thing. doesn’t feel normal to you today, but you are not alone.

Renata Bernarde (42:39)
Yes.

Jessica Childress (42:49)
It happens globally and you’re going to be okay. But it’s important for you to do that self-reflection to remember that you have to regain your confidence after this. You have to remember that you have gained something from this job and now it’s up to you to determine, okay, how do you pivot? And how do you pivot ⁓ efficiently because you will have to sustain yourself. And so…

Renata Bernarde (43:14)
Yeah.

Jessica Childress (43:16)
That’s where the help of a coach and a mental health professional really do, or they’re really important at that stage because it is shocking and you have to develop some coping mechanisms if you’re terminated suddenly.

Renata Bernarde (43:30)
That’s wonderful. Thanks for sharing that. Jessica, you mentioned the help of a coach and a health professional. I want to talk about the help from your book. What do you hope readers will take away from the book you wrote? Peace.

Jessica Childress (43:45)
Well, the first Renata is that as we discussed just a minute ago, there is peace after you leave, right? And you are, and if you decide to stay, you can still achieve your peace. But it’s important to go through the framework that I outline in the book. You have to reflect. You have to report if there are unlawful things happening and even bad things that are not unlawful. It’s important to report those. And then you have to resolve the issue.

And that resolution could come by staying within the company, or that resolution can come by leaving. But it’s up to you to determine how you will resolve the issue and achieve your peace, because it does not feel peaceful to work in toxicity. And so I want people to go through that framework if you are navigating a toxic work environment. And I just want them to come away with a piece of understanding, understanding more about what the law is.

I think when you’re going through a toxic work environment, everything’s happening so quickly. Everything feels confusing. You don’t know, as we talked about earlier, you don’t know if this is a normal occurrence or if you are imagining everything, if you’re being overly sensitive. So I’d like to give some assurance to the readers and the students of the course that

These are the things that are patterns that I see in toxic workplace and that I’ve seen over my over a decade of years of practicing law and my personal experience. These are the things that do constitute toxicity and these are the things that constitute an unlawful hostile work environment and then knowing the difference because you can take a case to court. You can try.

Renata Bernarde (45:31)
Mm-hmm.

Jessica Childress (45:36)
and you can get to the finish line, you’re about to go to trial, and a judge could say this is not a hostile work environment. And that’s just not a place that you want to be. And so it’s important to understand the difference and understand that in some cases you just never know, right? Like you could have the best facts in the world that could demonstrate what you believe and what your lawyer believes to be a hostile work environment, but it’s important for

for users of the course or in students to understand the law has a very high, high standard. And you don’t know what a judge will do when they, or a jury will do when they evaluate your case and the facts of your case. And so taking that piece early, and that might just be signing a severance agreement or.

Renata Bernarde (46:29)
Hmm.

Jessica Childress (46:29)
leaving on your own terms with no severance agreement but just leaving with the peace of knowing you’re leaving the work environment or working within the the workplace working within the same company maybe going to another company ⁓ maybe exercising your if you are dealing with a health condition that your workplace is causing it’s a workplace stress

determining what your rights are under what’s called the Family and Medical Leave Act, the FMLA, or any short-term leave policies. Those are all options, so it doesn’t have to be so dismal. And so that’s what I really want readers to understand and students to understand.

Renata Bernarde (47:11)
Jessica, thank you so much for coming back to the Job Hunting podcast. I feel like we should have you every year because the topics that you bring for us to discuss are really important for my audience. ⁓ And I always like to have guests from the US as well, because being based in Australia, there’s just so much that I know about the issues of unemployment and the sort of

health insurance is a great example of the difference in different countries. And I have clients that are ⁓ losing their jobs in Great Britain, for example, and it’s so different, the process of layoff in Great Britain versus the US. So I’m not an expert on that. I’m expert on finding you a job, everyone. But your expertise is really adjacent and so important. So thank you so much for coming on board today.

And I will make sure that all the links to you and your course and your book and everything will be in the episode show notes so that people can easily find you.

Jessica Childress (48:19)
Well, thank you so much, Renata. It’s always a pleasure to speak with you. And I think that the work that you do is so important. And I enjoy empowering people to understand their rights and that they’re and let them know that there is peace.

Renata Bernarde (48:35)
Yes, now you’re doing a great job. like I said, I hope you write more in your next book and come back to us to share your ideas with us. It’s always great to have you.

Jessica Childress (48:47)
Thank you so much.