Episode 303 - Kyle Samuels returns to share his personal health journey, the lessons it taught him about leadership, and the hiring trends shaping today’s job market. We explore recruitment trends, networking strategies, and how to handle career gaps with confidence.

Renata Bernarde (01:00)
My guest today is Kyle Samuels, the founder and CEO of Creative Talent Endeavors, an executive search firm based in the US, reshaping how leadership hiring works. Kyle was first on this podcast back in early 2024, and it was one of the most practical and insightful conversations about executive compensation in the hiring process. A lot has changed since then.

Personally, Kyle has been through a profound health journey, having undergone surgery and chemotherapy after a pancreatic cancer diagnosis. Professionally, he’s continued to grow his business, supporting employers and job seekers during one of the most uncertain job markets in recent years. Today, we go deeper. We talk about his personal journey.

putting health above all else, then we discuss how hiring is shifting and how job seekers should think about positioning themselves. This episode is a lesson on what resiliency really means when the curve balls aren’t just professionals, but deeply personal. I hope this conversation inspires you as much as it did me.

If you haven’t yet subscribed to the Jobs Hunting Podcast, I hope this episode is the inspiration for you to stay in touch with me and with my guests by clicking that subscribe button and following us. I also have a weekly newsletter that I prepare with much care and I do it especially for job seekers like you with special content that I do not share anywhere else but in the newsletter. I save all the juicy stuff for the newsletter.

you will find a link to subscribe to the newsletter in the episode show notes as well, or you can go to my website. It’s R-E-N-A-T-A-B-E-R-N-A-R-D-E.com, renatabernardi.com. And if you need a coach, my website is also where you will find all my services and my courses. Reach out if you need help. Now, grab a cup of coffee and enjoy me for a conversation with Kyle.

Renata Bernarde (03:15)
My friend, ⁓ I’m very glad that you reach out to me again.

We spoke a year and a half ago and yeah, a year and a half ago. And since then, you’ve been an awesome friend of the podcast. You’ve sent us some wonderful guests. Thank you so much. And you have gone through quite a lot of as well. So we’re here to talk about what’s been going on with you and your business. I think maybe we can.

Kyle Samuels (03:26)
Or yeah, before.

Renata Bernarde (03:48)
we can start there. Something really personal happened to you and you still manage to keep your leadership in your business going. How much of that experience you want to share with us today?

Kyle Samuels (04:01)
It’s open kimono so we can talk about anything. Absolutely.

Renata Bernarde (04:04)
Okay,

so let’s begin. ⁓ Tell me what shifted, what has changed since the last time we spoke.

Kyle Samuels (04:15)
Well, I got to smidge the pancreatic cancer just a touch. ⁓ no, but all jokes aside, and honestly, having a sense of humor is one of those things that helped me cope and go through this. ⁓ May of last year had an issue, went to the ER, you know, think for my wife, because when they couldn’t figure out what was going on, she knew to say, hey, why don’t you do a CT?

Renata Bernarde (04:21)
⁓ my goodness.

Kyle Samuels (04:42)
And when they did that, that’s when they came back and said, sir, do you have pancreatitis? And I said, not that I know of, but thanks for letting me know. Cool. Went to my regular doctor the following Monday, ran a bunch of tests. There’s a test called the CA-99, which looks for the, ⁓ the appearance of these antibodies that could, doesn’t always mean cancer, but the higher it is, the more likely you have cancer. Right. And so the normal range is zero to 32.

Renata Bernarde (05:09)
Mm-hmm.

Kyle Samuels (05:12)
When they took mine, I was at, I think, like 370. So 10x the top. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, all right, but still we don’t know what it, not looking good, but whatever. And so then I get my endoscopy in June of last year. And then that’s when they tell me, hey, it’s cancer. So then you go to think about like, all right, what are my options? And it’s surgery, then chemo or chemo, then surgery, or the third option, which is just like,

Renata Bernarde (05:21)
Thank

Kyle Samuels (05:41)
Let’s see what happens, which is not something I was curious about finding out, right? ⁓ And so, listen, I will tell you this. My job helped save my life, and here’s why.

Years ago, met a pharmaceutical executive, helped her just, she came from the world of nonprofit, never worked for a for-profit company with stock and equity and bonus, things like that. And so I just kind of helped her figure out what her deal should look like. And then we just built a relationship off that, right? So when this happens, I’m like, who can I call? And that lady is the head of,

Billy Rattano is like head of oncology advocacy or cancer advocacy, something like that. So was like, hey, I need an advocate right now. And they were so generous with their network. you know, listen, I’m 99.9 % sure that I bumped somebody from the surgery schedule at Duke because, you know, using those relationships and I was able to get into like this hotshot surgeon who did my, he did my surgery and he went on vacation.

Renata Bernarde (06:31)
Yeah.

Kyle Samuels (06:52)
And so that was super helpful, right? So July 17th of last year is when I had surgery. And one of the things that you think about, ⁓ and this is the only time in my life I’ve been like, all right, it would be better to be an employee right now. Right? Cause like I think about my last job at Taco Bell, big, you know, $10 billion company. Like if I go out, there’s a whole bunch of HR people to fill in the blank and do whatever. Right. ⁓ didn’t have that. Right. And so you think about,

Renata Bernarde (07:18)
Yeah.

Kyle Samuels (07:22)
When you think about work, two things what I was thinking about. Number one is, okay, what do tell my clients? Number two, and actually not in any particular order is what do I tell my employees? And so you think about, well, if I’m super transparent, that’s one of the things that I’ve learned in this entrepreneur journey. In the beginning, I was like, I’m open, here you go, I’m telling you everything. And then you realize that not everyone can synthesize that the way you intend. And so I was like,

Renata Bernarde (07:33)
Mm-hmm.

Kyle Samuels (07:47)
I look at it’s like, my God, this is why the big CEOs don’t tell everyone everything because they’re not ready for it. Got it. And so all I said is I’m going in for surgery. Everything should be okay. I’ll let you know when I’m out. And the reason I did it like that is because even with the MRIs and the CTs, there’s always a possibility they get in there, they see it’s in your blood or in your lymph nodes, which wouldn’t come out. there’s a possibility they go, sew them back up and just tell them to have the best six months of his life he can because there’s no point in even doing the surgery, right?

And so if that had been the reality, I would have given a generous severance to my employees and told all my clients, Hey, I’m out of here. Sue me if you want, we’ll give you refunds, but I’m, I’m out of here. I’m not spending my last six months of work. Right. Or if it was positive, if it was positive in a good way, right. It’s Hey, I had pancreatic cancer. Here’s the plan, blah, blah, blah. Cause you don’t want prematurely your clients to just say, well, screw it. Let me start. I’m not going to kick off anymore with this guy. He’s got one foot in the banana peel, the other one in the grave.

Renata Bernarde (08:17)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Kyle Samuels (08:47)
And then you also don’t want your employees, which I get it to say like, well, shit, let me start looking for a job because, you know, boy might not make it. And so luckily things worked out well. And so I told everyone I did a LinkedIn post, ⁓ just to, you know, awareness. Cause there’s also that part of like, you know, you’re not returning phone calls like you used to and stuff like that. And people like, why is he a big shot? And then it’s like, that’s why, that’s why he didn’t get back to me. Right. And so, ⁓ yeah, it, it, it, was, it was a ⁓ rough cycle.

Renata Bernarde (09:04)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Kyle Samuels (09:16)
⁓ so I did this surgery and then spend a couple months getting my health back up so that I’d be, ⁓ in good enough shape to do chemotherapy. This stuff humbles you, right? So like entrepreneurs, you think, you’re the type a super, super woman, Superman. I can do everything to the point where. Listen, Renata, I thought.

Renata Bernarde (09:17)
Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

Yeah. There is

no playbook for this, right? There is no playbook for this. You have to play by the rules of destiny and just take one step at a time.

Kyle Samuels (09:47)
I thought that the day after my surgery, or maybe two days after, I was at, but I literally had call schedules. Like, oh, it’ll be fine. I’ll just be in my hospital room doing my work and all right. And then like, my wife was like, are you done? I’m like, no, cancel that. So I did. And then, you know, same thing. All right, I’m doing chemo. I’m just sitting here connected to stuff. I’ll work.

Renata Bernarde (10:04)
Yeah.

Kyle Samuels (10:13)
So what you learn is, or I learned, that there’s, know, chemotherapy is like saying soup, right? Like Italian wedding soup is a soup, tomato is a soup. just, it’s not the same thing as like water, right? So anyway, it’s a combination of different drugs. And so they give you one for one and an hour and a half and the next one, next one. So long story short, one of the drugs, it makes me talk like this. I can’t help but feel like,

You ever go to the dentist and they give you the thing and your lips all big and you’re like, Hey guys. So then I was like, okay, can’t do work because this is super unprofessional. Right. And so you just learn and it helps you. And what it makes you learn is this or made me learn as this. That’s cool. You want to run a successful company and do all these things. But guess what? If you don’t have health, none of this matters and you can’t do it.

Renata Bernarde (10:46)
Yes.

Yeah.

Kyle Samuels (11:06)
So I just had to be realistic about taking a step back and work and trying to do what you can when you feel like it. But like, you know, you get waves and nausea and things of that nature. And so it was a six month chemo session, one week on, one week off. ⁓ Went to a conference, this amazing conference that I’ve been going to. And I even like played with my chemo schedule so that I could go that whole week. And so again, you’re there to make, build relationships and strengthen the ones you have. Sure.

what, four months out of surgery and in chemo, but let’s do 18 holes of golf. Let’s go. And so what happened there is that was like a Monday. And then I was, that was a Tuesday, I think. And then I was fine Wednesday. The days don’t matter. My point is this, the next day I was fine. But the day after that, try, I try to get up my body was like, you’re not leaving this hotel room. And so that’s when I had all these big meetings with these like super important people. Now, again, I will tell you this.

Renata Bernarde (11:40)
Ha ha ha!

huh.

Well.

Kyle Samuels (12:03)
cancer is pretty much undefeated as an excuse. You know what saying? It’s just like, Kyle, my EA said, Kyle, can make it. He has cancer and he’s did it. Oh, okay. You know what mean? So people get that, right? But my body could not, like, I’m not gonna, it’s not that I couldn’t get out of bed, but I could, like I was in no condition to put on a suit and have a coherent conversation about business with anyone, right? Like I ended up leaving the next day, right? So again, it humbles you. And it again says, that’s the point.

Renata Bernarde (12:12)
Yeah. Yeah.

Kyle Samuels (12:30)
You didn’t care care your body. So you were doing all you were not taking care of your body to do business. So now look at you looking stupid in the face. You didn’t give me business and you messed your body up. Right. And so that was the last one where I was like, all right, I really have to this easy and just, you know, do the best that I can without putting my, body and my health at risk and let’s see what happens. And then I’m very happy to say that a month ago had an MRI was clean. Um, I got my poured out.

Renata Bernarde (12:40)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Kyle Samuels (12:57)
That’s the thing they put there for chemotherapy. So it’s a much more hygienic way to go versus like, you know, in your arm every day. That’s been removed and they only do that when they, you know, your oncologist feels like, Hey, I don’t think you’re going to be needing chemo anytime. So it’s still going to be a couple of years of every quarter doing checks. And I’m sure like every time I get it, I’ll be like, I hope it’s good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But also not at least with this first one, cause it’s like,

Renata Bernarde (13:17)
a bit anxious.

Mmm.

Kyle Samuels (13:26)
I can’t do anything about it, right? Like there’s nothing, so I try not to worry because it’s like, it’s gonna be what it’s gonna be. There’s no amount of pushups or diet that I can eat. Exactly, exactly. And so again, it’s like, you just focus on the things that matter. it has been phenomenal. So some of the cool things that have come out of it is, I’m proud, I’m gonna show you. So, Pancan, the Pancreatic Cancer Action Network, they have a purple stride walk every year.

Renata Bernarde (13:34)
It’s out of your control.

Okay.

wow. ⁓

Kyle Samuels (13:55)
It’s the same place. might even be globally, but definitely in United States, the same Saturday. And my team was the first place family and friends fundraising team. And I was the biggest individual fundraiser. And so it matters. But again, I’m not going to lie to you. It also comes back to what I do in executive search for a living because I posted about it on LinkedIn and like, know, listen.

Renata Bernarde (14:11)
contributor.

Yeah.

Kyle Samuels (14:23)
A of these people got big pockets. They can throw a 25 or 30 piece and people went far beyond that, right? So that’s been awesome. And actually I’m going to another Panic Can event this Saturday. Wait, no, next Saturday, next Saturday, next Saturday. And then ⁓ what else? I joined a group called Sambaai. It’s a nonprofit that’s focused on ⁓ understanding the impact and helping how cancer impacts ⁓ black people. And I didn’t say African-American because it’s globally all over the world. So black people all over the world. So that’s been cool.

Renata Bernarde (14:28)
Yeah.

Kyle Samuels (14:52)
Um, and it’s just been, it’s one of those things too, that I’ve found that there’s some, I was very out and just open about it. And I know myself, if I was an employee, I wouldn’t have been right. Like if I was just like a VP of HR to forge 500 company, I would have been doing my thing. That’s it. But I think because, no, I know because I had a business and I wanted people to know, because pancreatic cancer is so insidious that most people don’t know.

Renata Bernarde (15:02)
Mm-hmm.

Kyle Samuels (15:22)
until it’s stage four and it’s usually too late by then. So it’s like, Renata, you look a little yellow and you’ve gotten skinny since the last time I saw you, right? And you’re always taking naps. That’s usually what happens. When I was in the hospital recovering, a congresswoman named Sheila Jackson Lee, literally the day after my surgery, they announced that she had died. And what happened with her was typically what happened. In June, they announced it she was like, I’m gonna fight this thing, let’s go. And then a month later it was like, unfortunately she’s passed away, right?

Renata Bernarde (15:25)
Yes.

Yeah.

Kyle Samuels (15:49)
So I got mine in stage two and that meant everything. It meant that I did not have to have the surgery called the Whipple where they basically cut you from your belly button up to like here. I had some robotic surgery, five cuts. ⁓ So I’ve actually found, and I know it sounds weird and ironic, but a sense of gratitude about this, right? ⁓ Because most, like my wife didn’t want me looking at the numbers because she knows she’s a background in healthcare, but like.

Renata Bernarde (16:09)
Yeah.

Kyle Samuels (16:17)
It’s just not, it’s not good. And again, I’m not out of, I’m looking good now. Things can come back, whatever, but even that quick, it’s just, it’s just one of those nasty diseases. And so I think that was it too. And so let me say to your viewers, I gave you three symptoms, jaundice, weight loss, fatigue. Here’s another one. And this is the crazy one that I didn’t know was a, was a symptom until after you start talking to the doctors, my lower back was hurting. So once you hit, for most of us, once you hit 40 plus, that’s just

Renata Bernarde (16:23)
Yeah.

⁓ okay. That makes sense, yeah.

Kyle Samuels (16:47)
So what? You know what mean? And the sun came up and whatever, right? And so I’m fairer gunning my tumor, but that’s what happened in retrospect. It was the tumor from the pancreas pushing against my spine, which resulted in lower back pain. But think about it. If your lower, if your back hurts, do you go, Oh my God, cancer. You just go, Oh, I got a stretch or I’m working out wrong or whatever. And so to anyone watching or listening, please, if you get some kind of, um, it doesn’t have to be lower back to be anywhere, but some kind of pain where there’s no

Renata Bernarde (17:01)
Yeah.

Kyle Samuels (17:16)
You didn’t bump something. It wasn’t from lifting. You weren’t stretching or something like that. Get it taken care of because I will also tell you this. My tumor was very aggressive. And then like I said, June 15th is when I had the endoscopy and July 17th is when I had the surgery and they took it out and they told me it had grown 50 % in a month. Yeah. Yeah.

Renata Bernarde (17:23)
Good night.

Wow, that’s huge.

during the time you were telling your story, several times you mentioned the difference between having your own business and being an employee. And I think this is so telling and so important for us to talk about because I, from time to time, will get a client who has been unemployed for a little while. And when we have our conversation, I find out that they’ve had a health scare.

either had it themselves or they were caring for somebody who had it and they couldn’t work for a couple of years. And I think even though when you are employed, you have systems in place and supports in place, sometimes you fall off the crack. Maybe you were a contractor, for example, maybe, you know, the ties with the employer weren’t as tight or sometimes you really can’t cope. And I’ve known I’ve been in that situation myself.

where I felt I can’t work anymore. This is way too hard. I need to get out ⁓ because of health reasons. As a recruiter now with that insight of having lived experience of this, what would you advise people to do if they find themselves in that situation, ready to go back to work with a career gap? Do they explain this? Is it okay? What if they feel like uncomfortable talking about their health? ⁓

Kyle Samuels (19:04)
It’s a personal decision. And so one of the things that happens, cause I’m so upfront about it, is I get connections with people. And especially, by the way, when I was going through chemo and stuff, like chemo takes a lot out you. So like, would tell people, like, listen, I wouldn’t tell them the whole story, but just so they, so if they saw me going like this or whatever, they weren’t like, oh, sorry, I’m so boring. It’s like, they understood that I wasn’t, you know, it was the nausea wave coming over. Right. And so a lot of people would be like, well, actually I’m a cancer survivor myself and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Once you kind of engage. And there was one lady I spoke to, um,

Renata Bernarde (19:10)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Kyle Samuels (19:33)
And she wasn’t specific about what type, but she was going through it as well and just finishing chemo as well. And she was actively interviewing and she wasn’t disclosing it, right? And so I think she was just saying like, I took a hiatus or something like that. And cause I think for her, was a little bit easier that she was still at the company while on medical leave. So there wasn’t really a gap. Like she was still getting paid working there. But I think it depends, right? Because there is a fear.

Renata Bernarde (19:57)
Yeah.

Kyle Samuels (20:02)
depending on the job that someone’s going to feel like, all right, well, what if it comes back and then they’re out again and we’re paying them or they, you know what mean? Like there’s a lot of that. Me personally, I would say I would be upfront and here’s, now, let me stop, let me stop. I would be upfront unless you’re in a situation where your back’s against the wall and you need to get this money because you’re going to move the house, something like that, then. But the reason I say I would typically be honest is because

How does organization reacts is gonna tell you everything about who they are. And if all of a sudden, you know their love and all of a sudden, oh, we just lost the head count, I’m so sorry. That’s probably not a company that you wanted to work in anyway. And so again, it depends. if there, let’s say there’s no gap, right? Let’s say I was working at company A and I was out for however many months with this ordeal and I just don’t wanna work there anymore for whatever reason.

If it’s not going to impact your job, right? Like, now I would tell them if, you have chemo every week from four to eight on Tuesdays, I mean, I guess you could be kind of cool and say, have a commitment or whatever, but I would still just be frank about that. But unless it’s something where, you you’re going to have to lift things and you physically can’t do it, because then you can’t do the job, ⁓ I think it’s a judgment call. But my bias is always on just being upfront. And so…

I’d rather that than them.

than me not tell them and me not know who they are. And then you get there like, this is a crap organization. I just think it’s better to be honest.

Renata Bernarde (21:40)
Yeah, you’re right. And I think as we have longer careers, we are more exposed to having ups and downs in our profession, in our lives, in our health, right? So it could be health, it could be some personal matter, it could be we need to learn how to navigate this and not feel so anxious about it. You also mentioned, you know, it’s out of my control. I’m not going to…

worry about it and I think it’s important there are certain things that are within your control and other things that are not. What would you recommend now for people that have businesses like yourself? Tell me about how it went out with your employees. Did you delegate things? I mean, even if you are a manager working for a company, sometimes it’s hard to let go, isn’t it?

the things that are your responsibilities, how did that work out for you?

Kyle Samuels (22:42)
I would say that the team did a pretty good job of holding things down, if I’m being honest, right? ⁓ I wasn’t executing any searches. I was just doing business development and stuff. But there was concern, there was care, you’re doing okay, et cetera. ⁓ And I’m very grateful. We ended last year better than we ended the year before, which is crazy. know what mean? So ⁓ it was surprise, concern. ⁓

And again, still concerned, one of the things you learn in retrospect is that obviously I lost weight and such, like, ⁓ you know, like your face is your face. So like when we gain weight, we don’t notice it because we see this, it’s gradual, but if you haven’t seen someone in three months, they’re like, whoa, you’ve been going crazy on those cookies, right? So I realized this, I went to this event in May of this year and I saw a bunch of people in this entrepreneurial group I’m in.

Renata Bernarde (23:30)
Yeah.

Kyle Samuels (23:39)
Oh my God, you look so good and did it up. And I was like, the last time I saw all of them was in November at that golf thing where I, and I was like, you gotta be honest with me. Did I look horrible back then? And someone was like, you pause for second, he was like.

And then one of my friends who, she’s a lot more abrupt. was like, yeah, you were also very ashy. And I was like, okay, got it, got it, got it. But like, I didn’t notice it’s just me, right? And so that, think I didn’t realize that that was probably jarring as people were seeing me kind of like for a little bit disintegrate every time we had a call or whatever, right? And so you don’t, I didn’t realize that before, right? Cause if you see someone and you’re just like, you hope they do well, but like, man, they look really skinny.

Renata Bernarde (24:07)
Yeah.

Kyle Samuels (24:25)
Other thing I do want to let you know is I had hair when we last spoke. This is why I say, um, I definitely do not recommend pancreatic cancer. 10 out of 10 do not do, but I’ve been so blessed in the sense that that’s one of the things you worry about, right? I’m an old guy. Like having hair in your head is a bit of a flex after a while, it, chemotherapy didn’t take my hair. I cut my hair.

Renata Bernarde (24:31)
I remember, yeah.

Don’t. ⁓

Kyle Samuels (24:55)
because my hair was almost as long as yours, at least down to here by the time I cut it. And I’m wearing scrunchies, like I’m catching myself in videos, I’m doing this like I’m Shirley frigging Temple. So I just cut it just to go back to the old me, but that’s how lucky I was. So, but then I realized, let me tell people that I cut it, cause I didn’t want them being like, ⁓ it took his hair. Right? So again, I’ve been very lucky and very blessed. And it’s just easier cutting my hair. it takes me a few minutes in the day versus the…

Renata Bernarde (24:59)
Yeah.

Okay.

Okay.

Kyle Samuels (25:24)
all the stuff, right? But again, and again, I’m grateful that because number one, I look pretty good with a shaved head. Number two, imagine I had a lumpy head or I was a woman. Like that’s not quite as easy to be like is cavalier about like, I just shaved my head, right? So I’ve had a lot of ⁓ luck through this unlucky circumstance.

Renata Bernarde (25:26)
Yeah.

Yes, you have. Well done. now we’re catching up. Sort of let me know if you want to carry on this topic, but I also wanted to talk about other things that have happened in the world since we last spoke and since all of this has been going on. mean, here you are going through this personal situation, ⁓ managing your business the best way you can, doing rather well.

Kyle Samuels (25:58)
Yeah, yeah. Yes, yes.

Renata Bernarde (26:11)
And some of the things that we discussed last time we spoke like diversity and inclusion, they were so important to you. And I believe that there’s still a lot has changed in the U S in terms of diversity and inclusion since we last spoke. So our companies to investing in it. Can you sort of update me? I’m in Australia. Things are still fine here. So please tell me what’s going on and how you see it trending in the future.

Kyle Samuels (26:32)
Yes. So here’s the good news.

Here’s the good news. Yes. There’s a search that we’re doing for one of our clients and the role dotted line reports to the head of DEI. Do you know how many employee or candidates I’ve had happily be like, oh wow, they still have a head of DEI and they’re not like hiding them and obfuscating them under some title. So it’s still happening, right? There are certain companies, I think it like this company, they’re not a government contractor. They’re

public, but like, they’re just not worried about Big T coming at them, right? Whatever, cool. But the other part that I’ve seen and why I say yes is a lot of companies are doing a little cloak and dagger stuff. So what they’re doing is, let’s say I was the vice president of diversity, equity, and inclusion two years ago. Now I’m the VP of community belonging.

Renata Bernarde (27:33)
⁓ okay.

Kyle Samuels (27:34)
I’m still doing the same work and these are actual friends I have. I’m still doing the same work, but we’re just doing it under the radar. Yeah. Yeah. Now the other companies and or cause we say companies, just means people who have power. Companies are inanimate. They can’t make decisions, but the companies with leadership that a lot of tech people have been honest, ⁓ were annoyed by this or didn’t understand the need for it.

Renata Bernarde (27:40)
Okay.

Kyle Samuels (28:01)
they’re footloose and fancy free. They can wait to start giving people pink slips. You know what mean? So I think that that’s where it is. And so if that’s something that’s important to you, and here’s where it gets tricky, right? Because there could be a company that does believe in that, but they don’t have the title because they don’t want big T coming at them, right? And so I’ve told people, don’t assume just because you go to the website and you don’t say anything about it means that they don’t care. It could mean they care.

And they care so much, they wiped it from the thing so they can actually do the work. Right. And so like, I was like, as you interview, ask those questions and see. So it’s, it’s a mixed bag when it comes to DEI, but honestly, what’s I think a bigger issue with that’s, that’s a part of it is just. I, I’ve been doing this for some time and I can’t, you know, I’m lying. The last time I remember companies treating candidates this bad was financial crisis 2008, 2009. Right.

I was in business school at the time and that’s where I remember a lady, she was a senior. She was like, she had done everything you’re supposed to do, right? Great grades, internships every year. She interned at this company two years. They made her an offer the summer going into her senior year. So she’s like kicked back. Why would she go recruiting? She has a job, right? April, a month before she’s supposed to graduate, this Fortune 500 company says, guess what? We’re sending your offer. Have a blast.

So she’s scrambling to like, the job fairs are over, like, right? And so what I’m seeing now is candidates are really on some cast with a ghost, right? Like, I’m sorry, companies. I literally just spoke to someone earlier today who told me that the only way he found out that he wasn’t up for the role is he called the recruiter back like, yeah, my bad. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They’re going with someone else, right? And so I think a number of things have happened.

Renata Bernarde (29:34)
Yeah, I was too.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Kyle Samuels (29:59)
I think that companies and part of this is from stuff I’ve heard part of it is apocryphal. I think that companies leadership. Remember five years ago when it was like, Oh my God, Kyle, COVID here. Here’s a hundred dollar a week gift card and here we’ll buy you a Peloton just so you can work out and do a stage war for talent. Oh my God, here’s extra money. Let’s go. Right. And then is, is one of my friends once said when business is good, everyone looks good. Then, then they started to see, Oh wait.

You aren’t really working that hard. You never even quit your first job and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so now there’s a weariness, right? And because of that, one of the things that I’ve been stressing a lot and actually we talk about it in, ⁓ cause we went the opposite way, right? So our, we do hell of a great work in executive search, but we also launched a product called hire ready, which is a job preparation course, because it was like, who better to teach people how to get higher ready than actual recruiters and HR executives. You know, the people on my team who speak to clients and candidates every day.

And ⁓ relationships matter more than ever, ever before. The reason…

Renata Bernarde (31:07)
Everyone is

saying that on my podcast, all my guests, even the AI founders, people that have been doing platforms and ATS systems. They said, are you sure? You’re just telling me that even though you’re building an ATS system, you’re telling me networks matter more than resumes? And he said, yep. So yeah.

Kyle Samuels (31:29)
They are the reason

those apps are part of the reason, right? Because a lot of ATSs or add-on tools, et cetera, they have AI tools that just, we’ve always screen resumes, but are just like, if you don’t see this, this, this, this, they’re out, right? So you could have someone who is amazing at your job, but not great at writing a resume. And that person who has the experience, but not the great resume with a real human being, they can get them in the door. But the computer is going to be like, nope.

You didn’t have these seven keywords I was looking for. So get out of here. Right. And so I will say this candidates are burnt out. I’ve told the story before, not like on a podcast, but just in general lady who was laid off. She’d been the same company for like, I don’t know, I think a 10 years. And so she went and looked back at her prior eight or nine years of, you know, what do call them?

That’s status reports. Your goal thing, you you do your goals and da da and give me a bonus because I did my goals right. And she was like, I was exceeded expectations for the last, it was either eight or nine years, right? And it’s gotten to the point. She’s respected, credentialed. She wasn’t getting past second round interviews. And so she was like doubting herself. Like, was I a personality hire? Did they just do that because they liked me to be around because I was fun? Like, and it’s like.

I was telling her, was like, trust me, companies don’t do that. No, if they’re paying you a salary, because you’re, making them a multiple of that, but like it messes people up psychologically and it can lead them to doubting, which becomes a slippery slope where if you’re not confident, you don’t show up well in the interview and blah, blah, blah, blah. And so, ⁓ I think that it’s getting better. Part of the reason why I said is we’ve had some searches this year for heads of town acquisition. So you don’t do that unless you’re planning to hire. So that’s a plus. ⁓

Renata Bernarde (33:26)
Mm-hmm.

Kyle Samuels (33:27)
But I also think that individuals, and please let me say this, because I want to give as much game and help as I can. Individuals who are looking for a role, sometimes people in the course will say this, I want a job at Company A. Do you know anyone there? Yeah, my old coworker, ⁓ but I haven’t spoken to her in six years since she left the company or I left the company. It’s not important, right? Well, have they been reaching out to you trying to reconnect and you’ve been ignoring them? No. Okay. So if you don’t reach out to them, you’re not going to get the job.

If you do reach out to them, they might ignore you or they may not. But I guarantee you, if you do nothing, you will not get the job. And so people feeling like awkward about, how do I, and I’m like, well, they haven’t reached out to you either. So you actually get credit for being the first one to do one. But we also tell people and we have one person in the course who was actively working, but they knew that they wanted to look and they’re like, they’re an HR person. So they know the best time to get a job is when you already have one. So they’re like, I want to start this now. And like reaching out to my network, not when

I quit or I get fired, right? But it it’s tough out there. And I’m talking about some of the people, the credentials, the schools, you would be like, this Ivy League educated McKenzie person can’t, no, it’s been two years. Crazy.

Renata Bernarde (34:27)
Exactly.

Yeah, I

will give you two examples of things that have happened this week with my clients. I have a client and she’s been working with me for about three months. She had been without a job for about a year and a half. And we built the momentum really slowly, networking through LinkedIn, through messaging, through emails, doing cold outreach to recruiters that are experts in her field without

asking too much, just connection requests, catching up with old colleagues, which she hadn’t done because she had some issues with the company that she worked before. So we did all of that and all of a sudden this woman is at the tail end of two processes and we yesterday had to discuss how to manage those, you know, so that she gets the two offers. And she told me.

Can you believe this is happening? Like, you know, look at where we’re at. And like, I can’t believe I often see this with my clients. The problem is when you’re at the beginning of the process, you don’t see that as a candidate, but as a career coach or a recruiter, we know that this can happen with that consistent ongoing effort, right? On the other hand, Kyle, this week also, I saw a client and this is what happened. She connected with the company that she wanted to apply for. The job had been advertised.

But she believed so much in that connection, which came back really quickly and like, yes, apply, that would be great, that she sent the application without tailoring it. So when she sent it to me and said, I don’t know what happened, they did not reach out to me, I didn’t even go for an interview and I got a no straight away.

And I looked at the Koval letter and the resume and none of the important keywords were there. So even though at that very senior level, she had a connection, that first talent acquisition officer, you know, a 20 something year old girl, or guy, I don’t know, wouldn’t know that she was, you know, and then by the time that the shortlist went to the senior exec, who is the decision maker, too much time would have passed and…

Kyle Samuels (36:51)
Mm-hmm.

Renata Bernarde (37:03)
they would be enamored by other applicants that had done a better job at applying. So there has to be a combination of the two things. You have to have connections if possible, that would be great. And if you don’t have it, let’s work on them for a few months so that you have them. And then you have to apply with care.

Kyle Samuels (37:24)
If so, what would have helped your client? The second one is, and this is something I preach. Listen, LLMs are here to stay. We all have access to them. Invest the 20 bucks or, know, they’re all different. use Chad JBD, but invest the 20 bucks in it, right? And so if you take time and care, that is one of the easiest ways to stand out, right?

Renata Bernarde (37:29)
Yeah.

Kyle Samuels (37:50)
And so what I tell people, takes time, right? But usually to be successful is doing the things and putting in extra work that other people aren’t doing. So if you are applying somewhere, I tell people to do this. So first off, let’s say there’s the TA person or whomever the person posts the job, let’s say you’re interested in them. First off, see if you have any connections or ways that you can stand out and leverage that, right? Cool. Also,

Customize why you’re interested in the job, not some, I applied to this role. I’m so high about company ABC, but it’s like, I was excited about this because I the ⁓ OD experience you’re looking for is just like the project I led in Asia for this company, blah, blah, blah, blah, right? But that shows that you’re taking care and you’re specifically interested in that company. Recruiters all know that there’s one click apply and that a lot of people just, they’ll put.

Renata Bernarde (38:36)
Yes.

Kyle Samuels (38:41)
Marketing and just click every marketing role apply from the intern marketing for the chief marketing officer and they’re like, whatever, whoever comes back, comes back. No one’s coming back because you didn’t take care. Uh, you’re probably not the best fit. And even if you are a fit, how are you going to compete against that person who has a relationship? And another thing and another thing, not going to get on my AI high horse is that the way I interview my level of expectation has gone up. Right. And so.

Renata Bernarde (38:50)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Kyle Samuels (39:11)
Again, there’s Chad GPT, Gemini, whatever you want to use, So there is no reason for you to show up not prepared for an interview. There’s no reason, whether it’s with me or you move on with a client. Chad GPT, I’m interviewing with Mike Johnson, the CFO of XYZ Corporation. It’s an interview for a controller role. Please let me know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Here’s my resume. Compare it to the job description. Pull out any through lines that you see so I can, like,

And that doesn’t take that long. The robot’s doing it for you, right? And so if you’re not doing it, you’re already behind the eight ball. again, doing that doesn’t mean you don’t get the job. It just means you’ll probably go further than someone else, but it’s table stakes at this point. Like I had someone, this will blow your mind. It was for a head of TA search. So who am I interviewing? Heads of TA.

person now in that case, I think maybe they were just like, I don’t care about the job, but they showed up. They’re like, wait, what’s this for? I said, you know what? I told them what it was, but I don’t think this is going to work. And I was just like, come on, what are we talking about? Right. So again, you can do so much. That, I mean, that’s an extreme example. You don’t even know what the title is. By the way, it wasn’t a confidential search. was literally in the message I sent you and it was in the anyway. So yeah, I think that people need to

Renata Bernarde (40:36)
Yeah.

Kyle Samuels (40:37)
adapt to the technology we have. And that’s an interesting thing, right? Kind of going back to what you mentioned with the founders, the AI stuff, right? It’s both. It’s you need to use AI, the future, but you need to go old school and shake some hands and kiss some babies and fortify existing relationships and build new ones and let go of the ego of what if I reach out and they say, no, so what? Like I’m a recruiter. People say no to the stuff I’m offering all the time. I was like,

close this search out, no, you keep going and it’s fine. If you do it respectfully in the right way, if you reach out to someone, they may not respond, but they’re not going to do anything to harm you. At best it’ll stay with, you just don’t talk to them anymore ever and that’s how it was before, so you’ve lost nothing.

Renata Bernarde (41:25)
Yeah, Kyle, ⁓ you’ve mentioned talent acquisition as being trendy and you’ve been ⁓ recruiting for some. What other jobs have you been seeing as trending and showing up with clients asking you to find candidates for? I think this might be good to tell the listeners. There’s a lot of people that…

went through mass redundancies, not only in the US, it’s happening all over the world. Be interesting for them to see what the market is asking.

Kyle Samuels (41:59)
Well, we do a lot of HR.

That’s our number one function. so like, ⁓ senior level HR, VP roles and like OD and talent roles are coming back, which is great. Cause again, the TA roles coming back means you’re good. Good, good. Cause it’s like if the talent acquisition comes back, that means you plan to hire. And if you’re paying attention to your talent development OD, that means you plan to almost, I’m looking for ⁓ nurture and grow your people, right? Which is great.

Renata Bernarde (42:10)
I think that here in Australia as well, yeah. ⁓

Kyle Samuels (42:24)
So those are some, but other thing I would tell you, it’s not as much a job as an aspect. Kind of what we’re talking about. Pretty much every job that we’re doing right now has some kind of AI mandate, right? So again, this doesn’t mean that you’re like, unless it’s a technical role, I’m talking about non-technical roles, by the way, HR, general managers, CEOs, et cetera, controllerships. ⁓ But they want, any organization wants someone to do it and…

The reason why is because we want you to be as efficient as possible. This is a tool. So it’s not about like if I’m a HRBP for supply chain at $20 billion company, it’s not like I need you to build agents for, no, no, no. I just want to know as you’re doing your work, you’re going to be as efficient as possible in leverage LLMs to do so because if not, you’re wasting time. You’re not being efficient, right? And so that’s another reason why people need to get comfortable with this.

The good news I’ll tell you is I, as someone who uses a lot, for most people’s jobs, it’s not there yet. It still hallucinates even the paid ones. They still make mistakes. You got to double check things, et cetera. ⁓ So it’s not there yet, but it’s coming. It’s coming. It gets exponentially better every year. And in a year, those mistakes that it’s making now probably won’t. And so you need to utilize this. And that’s also something that makes you more valuable. What I mean by that is,

Let’s say you’re a director of PR, right? A director of PR who uses AI could save a company from needing another coordinator, right? no, no, we don’t need a little junior copywriter to write the things. We’ll just have AI write, you know what mean? And then we’ll schedule it using AI to post on our company web or LinkedIn page every day and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. We could schedule that out. And so it makes you much more ⁓ valuable as an employee because you’re,

they’re going to get more out of you paying the same salary as the you that doesn’t know how to use AI.

Renata Bernarde (44:26)
Of the candidates in the market that you’re seeing, what’s the percentage of candidates that you feel understand this value of AI?

Kyle Samuels (44:44)
25.

Renata Bernarde (44:45)
Okay.

Kyle Samuels (44:47)
And I’m speaking like non-technical people, like the people in tech, duh, right? But I’m saying like 25%. Yeah.

Renata Bernarde (44:52)
Yeah, okay.

Okay. So that already tells you everything, right? So you want to be in that top 25 % for sure.

Kyle Samuels (45:02)
Mm-hmm.

And another thing, again, going back to the relationships, I wonder if this is from a deck I did, but I think I have this study right. Yes, so if you are referred for a role, you have a 50 % chance of getting it. This is from Forbes. If you just apply, you have a one in 33 chance of getting the job.

So again, that’s another thing I’ll tell your audience is that sometimes people do this. They get so focused on the seniority of the person, that doesn’t necessarily matter. If a senior vice president put your name in the employee portal in the companies I’ve worked, it has just as much value as a junior accountant, right? Like I’ve run corporate TA, they give a lot of attention to the referrals, because again,

Renata Bernarde (45:36)
Mm.

Kyle Samuels (45:53)
Referrals tend to have better stickiness, do well at the company because someone knows their cultural company, they know the person, blah, blah, blah. And so they want those and they want to encourage people to doing it. And the easiest way to have people stop doing referrals is, I sent you three referrals, you didn’t talk to any of them. I’m not referring to my friends anymore just to get hung up. Right. And so I want people to understand that too. If there’s a job that you’re interested in, you know someone, you go, they’re only a social media coordinator. Doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter. They can be helpful.

And it’s also more important someone who really cares about you and wants you to win. Then that coordinator who worked for you five years ago as an intern, I think you’re the best boss they ever had. They’re going to go up to HR and be like, HR, what’s up? I submitted Renata two weeks ago. She hasn’t heard anything versus you meet the COO of a company at a conference and you have a really interesting, engaging conversation about pickleball over the coffee for five minutes. And she gives you her card. doesn’t, doesn’t, like it was a nice conversation, but like.

Why does she care enough to get involved in essentially a stranger’s career? Like, well, if you apply it, I’m sure if you’re good enough, HR, I’ll take care of it versus that coordinator is like, no, no, no, no. What’s up? What’s up? Yeah. So people remember that it’s not just the level of the person. More important is how much they have a vested interest in your success and how much they like you.

Renata Bernarde (47:00)
Yeah.

Yeah. And a tip here for the listeners who have been talking with in-house staff and trying to get referrals. If they send you a link to apply for the job, you apply using that link so many times, more times than I wish had happened. My clients receive the link and unfortunately they did not use that link. They use the link that they see on LinkedIn or

straight on the company website and I’m like no you don’t understand and it wasn’t made clear to them but that link is a referral link so if they send you a link you use that link to apply not the one you see online that everybody else can use.

Okay.

Kyle Samuels (47:59)
You just made me think of another dip, because this has happened

my whole career, every once, a few times a year. So we’ll reach out to someone, they won’t respond, they’ll go to the company and apply directly. In a lot of cases, we’re retained to do the search, so either we have access to the company’s, the client’s ATS, or they’re just like, hey, here’s the stuff that came through. And so we’ll reach out them and like, hey, yes.

Renata Bernarde (48:13)
Mm-hmm.

Kyle Samuels (48:26)
It’s us again. And the mentality is they think like, I’ll be a more attractive candidate if they don’t have to pay a fee. Right? So I’m going to go ahead and I’m now smart. Everyone, I’m going to apply. Maybe if you’re contingent, sure. ⁓ but we’re retained. like, we’re going to get paid anyway. And so I say, have to say, make friends, build relationships with recruiters because it works two ways. You may need them.

at some point, or you want to have a relationship with someone in your sector who knows what companies are hiring, et cetera. So if you decide it’s time for you to start looking, Hey Kyle, what’s going on? We talked about that one role. Remember I couldn’t relocate, but I just wanted to check in and see. I love that. I love that. So don’t be fearful of the recruiter. They can be ⁓ advocates for you. And in most cases, the reason, once a company decides to pay for a search, they just want the best person as quickly as possible. They’re not going to.

not hire someone because they’re going to have to pay a fee, they wouldn’t assign a contract where they have to pay a fee. They’ve already accepted that.

Renata Bernarde (49:28)
Yeah, I’m all for that, 100%. I think if you have the opportunity to apply via recruiter ⁓ and if the search is done by an agent and not in-house, it shows that the company really values external candidates and it wants a wide range and it wants high quality diversity. They have as part of their culture. ⁓

that investment in hiring. So think about that as a plus, as already a green flag. But also if by any chance you don’t go through that process, you’ve made you’ve made a connection in your industry with the recruiter that can be helpful for you in the future. I interviewed another recruiter on this podcast recently. His name is Dan Fantasia, and I will put a link to that episode below, Kyle. So if people are listening, you can go and listen to him. And he said, you know what happens?

the people that end up applying for the role may not be shortlisted. Most of the time we don’t shortlist it, but we keep them on file and we’re interested in them and then we will consider them for another role. And that’s how you need to think about it. And the way that he explained it shocked some of my clients. What do you mean? And I’m like, no, this is absolutely right. By the time I say this so many times on this podcast,

Kyle Samuels (50:38)
percent.

Renata Bernarde (50:52)
By the time something is advertised publicly, so much has already happened. You know, the recruiter has already reached out to their network. ⁓ The referrals internally have already been made. People that know people have tapped on them on the shoulder to let them know that the job is going to be advertised. So a shortlist is already forming there. But that doesn’t mean it’s a waste of time for you to apply. It means you are going to start making connections here.

that will eventuate in a job in the future. Yeah. it’s been good talking to you again. Look, we talked about so many important topics. I think the topic of health, of health care, of anything that takes you off course, which will eventually happen to all of us. It could be health, it could be a personal matter, it could be that you need a break from work, you’ve been working too hard. If we’re going to have long careers.

It’s not just going to be a linear way. It will be a squiggly line. So thank you so much for sharing with the listeners. It’s been fantastic. I really liked everything that you said. And then going into, I was dying to ask you about diversity and inclusion because last time we spent so much time talking about it and I’ll put the link to that episode below if people are interested in knowing that it’s still out there and there’s still…

Kyle Samuels (51:56)
Thank you for having me again.

Renata Bernarde (52:18)
opportunity for those people that have developed expertise over time to continue to reach out to employers and ⁓ find opportunities for them. That’s really important to me. And also AI, we spoke about how to use it, how to operate with ⁓ what employers are looking for in terms of the skills that they expect you to have and being on that.

Kyle Samuels (52:44)
Mm-hmm.

Renata Bernarde (52:46)
top 25%, even though it’s just anecdotal at this stage, but everything to do with AI is ⁓ so new that I really value ⁓ your feedback on that. So thank you.

Kyle Samuels (53:00)
You have some really interesting talks that I’ve heard over the last couple years because a lot of them are my people. So I like to listen. So just thank you. I really appreciate it.

Renata Bernarde (53:06)
Yeah.

Kyle, my pleasure. It’s wonderful to have you back.

Kyle Samuels (53:12)
Excellent. Thank you.