Guest: Linda Clemons
Body Language for Job Interviews
Episode 331 - Your experience may speak for itself on paper, but in interviews your body language is speaking too. Linda Clemons shares practical ways to project confidence, warmth, and authority so experienced professionals can perform better in interviews, networking events, and high-stakes conversations.
In Episode 331 of The Job Hunting Podcast, I speak with Linda Clemons about body language, executive presence, and the ways experienced professionals are often misread in interviews. Our conversation explores how stress shows up physically, why long tenure can mask unhelpful communication habits, and what candidates can do to present themselves with greater clarity, warmth, and authority.
Experienced professionals often assume that interview performance is mainly determined by the strength of their track record and the quality of their answers. That assumption makes sense. After all, senior candidates are usually selected for interview because their credentials already suggest competence. Yet many still leave the process confused by the outcome. They feel they answered well, understood the brief, and showed relevant experience, but did not turn the opportunity into an offer. In many cases, the missing factor is not substance. It is presentation in the broadest sense of the word.
This does not mean superficial polish or fake self-confidence. It means the interaction between verbal and nonverbal communication: posture, tone, pace, facial expression, emotional regulation, and the overall impression of steadiness. Employers do not assess these factors separately from capability. They fold them into their judgment of capability. For experienced professionals, especially those who have spent a long time inside one organisation, this creates a specific challenge. They may be highly competent, but no longer practised in making that competence clear to strangers in a short, high-pressure setting.
That issue came through clearly in my conversation with Linda Clemons, a global expert in nonverbal communication and executive presence. One of her most useful observations is that people are constantly judging alignment. They listen to the words, but they also notice whether the rest of the person appears to support them. When language, tone, movement, and emotional state line up, credibility rises. When they do not, doubt enters the room, even if nobody says it out loud.
Why long tenure can become a disadvantage in the external market
This is what I have observed in my coaching practice: One of the least discussed risks of long organisational tenure is that it can protect professionals from feedback about how they come across. Inside companies, people are understood through familiarity and context. Colleagues learn that the quiet executive is capable, that the reserved finance leader is dependable, or that the subdued manager is simply not expressive by nature. Over time, those around them stop reacting to style and start responding to established performance.
That protective context disappears in the job market. Interviewers do not know a candidate’s baseline. They do not know whether a flat tone signals composure, fatigue, disappointment, introversion, or disengagement. They do not know whether visible tension reflects nerves, recent redundancy, or low confidence. They know only what they can interpret in the moment. A communication style that was accepted or even respected inside an organisation may therefore become a problem in an interview, not because the person has changed, but because the context has.
This is one reason so many experienced candidates are surprised by how poorly the market reflects back the value they believed was obvious. It is obvious to those who have worked with them. It is not yet obvious to those who have just met them.
The problem with traditional ideas of executive presence
The term executive presence has long been used as shorthand for leadership readiness, but it has often been understood too narrowly. In many corporate environments, it has come to imply control, composure, restraint, and authority delivered in a familiar package. The model is so deeply embedded that many senior professionals still believe they must present themselves as fully self-contained in order to be taken seriously. They minimise emotion, suppress uncertainty, and try to maintain a polished surface at all times.
That strategy can backfire. The more forcefully people try to hide the reality of a difficult transition, the more likely it is that the effort to hide it becomes visible. Candidates who are trying to sound confident while still carrying disappointment, anger, or grief often create a subtle mismatch between what they say and how they appear. The words may be correct, but the body does not fully cooperate. What employers then register is not simply tension. They register inauthenticity, even if the candidate is not being dishonest in any formal sense.
A more useful model of executive presence is not invulnerability but coherence. The most credible candidates are not those who appear perfect. They are those who appear grounded, competent, and self-aware. They can acknowledge a challenge without being overtaken by it. They can discuss a difficult career moment without either collapsing into emotion or retreating into sterile language. They can project authority without disconnecting from the human reality of the conversation.
How pressure distorts professional presence
Clemons offers a practical framework for understanding how stress can show up in professional settings. She describes three common patterns: frozen, flooding, and flat. The value of these labels is not their psychological precision, but their usefulness in helping professionals recognise how they may be experienced by others.
The first pattern, frozen, is marked by shutdown. The candidate appears rigid, overcontrolled, or emotionally hard to reach. There is little warmth or movement. The interviewer may struggle to establish a connection, and the candidate may unintentionally seem detached from the conversation. In reality, such candidates are often deeply invested in the outcome, but their stress response shuts down the very signals that would help them seem engaged and credible.
The second pattern, flooding, involves the opposite problem. Emotion spills past containment. A question about a previous role, a difficult departure, or a current challenge triggers an answer that becomes too long, disjointed, or visibly raw. This is especially common when someone is interviewing too soon after an involuntary exit or an emotionally bruising workplace experience. Their story is still active in their nervous system, and the interview reveals that they are not yet ready to manage it professionally.
The third pattern, flat, is perhaps the most common among experienced corporate professionals. The candidate does not appear distressed, but nor do they appear fully present. Their tone lacks variation, their facial expressions offer little feedback, and their energy remains low and even throughout the interaction. Flatness is often mistaken for professionalism by people who have worked in highly internal, analytical, or risk-sensitive functions. Yet in the interview context it can read as lack of enthusiasm, limited influence, or reduced leadership range. What feels to the candidate like seriousness may feel to the interviewer like absence.
These patterns matter because interviews are not neutral exchanges of information. They are environments where people are making judgments. Employers are deciding not just what a candidate has done, but what it might feel like to work with them, trust them, and put them in front of others.
Readiness is emotional as well as strategic
There is a tendency in career advice to treat interview preparation as mainly cognitive. Candidates are encouraged to refine their examples, anticipate questions, and explain their value proposition. All of this matters. But it is incomplete. Preparation also has an emotional function. It reduces anxiety, creates a sense of control, and helps the body settle into a more credible state.
This is why thorough preparation can make such a visible difference. When candidates understand the employer, know the interviewer, have thought through likely questions, and have decided what impression they want to create, they do not merely sound better. They often look calmer. Their movements become less urgent. Their pacing improves. Their attention shifts from self-protection to engagement. Preparation, in other words, is not simply about better answers. It is one of the foundations of better presence.
There is a second point here, one that is often overlooked by both candidates and coaches. Not everyone who is qualified is immediately ready to interview well. Those two things are not the same. Someone may be employable in every practical sense and still be carrying too much emotional residue from a recent setback to present themselves with the level of steadiness the market requires. Recognising that difference can prevent unnecessary damage to confidence. The issue may not be capability. It may be timing.
Why authenticity matters more than polish
Poor advice about body language tends to focus on performance cues detached from context: hold eye contact for this many seconds, use your hands in this specific way, avoid these gestures, mirror the interviewer, dominate the room. Most of this advice makes candidates more self-conscious, not more effective. The goal is not to imitate confidence through technique alone. It is to remove the friction between what one means and what others perceive.
Authenticity is therefore not a sentimental ideal. It is a practical requirement. People rarely persuade through verbal precision alone. They persuade because they appear believable. Candidates who over-rehearse, hide too much, or try to present a version of themselves that feels strategically acceptable but personally unrecognisable often weaken their own credibility. The body tends to reveal strain where the script tries to project certainty.
This is especially relevant for experienced professionals who were shaped in an era that rewarded emotional restraint and discouraged visible vulnerability. Many still assume that leadership requires an absence of doubt. In fact, mature leadership is often conveyed more effectively through measured honesty than through overcontrol. Employers do not need candidates to be flawless. They need them to be credible under pressure.
What candidates should do differently
For experienced professionals, the practical lesson is that interview preparation should include visible communication, not just verbal content. Candidates should review not only what they plan to say, but how they tend to appear when saying it. Recording practice answers can be helpful, not for cosmetic self-critique, but for identifying patterns. Does tension make the voice narrow? Does concentration flatten the face? Does caution reduce warmth? Does a desire to sound professional strip the answer of energy?
Candidates should also prepare physically. Posture, camera angle, eye line, breathing, and pacing all affect how a message lands. These are not small details. They shape whether competence is recognised quickly or hidden by noise. Just as importantly, candidates should think carefully about whether they are emotionally ready to discuss difficult career moments with clarity and proportion. If not, more technical preparation will not solve the problem.
None of this requires turning professionals into performers. It requires helping them become more understandable in contexts where first impressions carry too much weight.
What employers should reconsider
Hiring organisations also have a role to play. Interviews often reward familiarity more than effectiveness. Employers may unconsciously favour candidates whose communication style resembles their own or fits a narrow picture of confidence. This creates risks in both directions. Some candidates are underrated because their authority is quieter, slower, or less polished. Others are overrated because they perform confidence convincingly, even if their underlying judgment is weaker.
A better approach is to separate genuine evidence of readiness from style preferences disguised as objective evaluation. Communication matters, particularly in leadership roles, but it should be assessed with more precision. The relevant question is not whether a candidate displayed a familiar form of executive presence. It is whether they communicated competence, judgment, steadiness, and relational intelligence in a way that fits the demands of the role.
A more useful way to think about presence
Experienced professionals do not need to become different people in order to interview well. However, they need to understand that the external market does not automatically grant them the context, trust, or generous interpretation they may have enjoyed internally. In that environment, presence becomes a strategic issue, not because substance matters less, but because substance must be made visible quickly.
The challenge is therefore not to manufacture charisma or adopt a new personality. It is to make sure that experience is not hidden by tension, outdated communication habits, or an overly rigid idea of professionalism. The most effective candidates are rarely those who appear the most polished. They are those whose words, demeanour, and emotional control combine to make one conclusion easy for the interviewer: this person is ready.
About Our Guest, Linda Clemons
Linda Clemons is a body language and connection expert, award-winning speaker, media personality, and consultant to Fortune 500 Companies for more than three decades. She is the CEO of Sisterpreneur Inc. She lives in Indianapolis, Indiana.
About the Host, Renata Bernarde
Hello, I’m Renata Bernarde, the Host of The Job Hunting Podcast. I’m also an executive coach, job hunting expert, and career strategist. I teach professionals (corporate, non-profit, and public) the steps and frameworks to help them find great jobs, change, and advance their careers with confidence and less stress.
If you are an ambitious professional who is keen to develop a robust career plan, if you are looking to find your next job or promotion, or if you want to keep a finger on the pulse of the job market so that when you are ready, and an opportunity arises, you can hit the ground running, then this podcast is for you.
In addition to The Job Hunting Podcast, on my website, I have developed a range of courses and services for professionals in career or job transition. And, of course, I also coach private clients
Resources Mentioned in This Episode
Timestamps to Guide Your Listening
- 00:00 The Evolution of a Podcast Host
- 01:14 Understanding Body Language and Nonverbal Communication
- 04:04 The Impact of Posture on Communication
- 06:55 Reading Nonverbal Cues in Real Life
- 10:01 Preparing for Job Interviews
- 12:56 Navigating Interview Dynamics
- 16:01 The Importance of Presence in Communication
- 18:17 Body Language and Interview Presence
- 21:03 Navigating Behavioral Questions
- 23:37 The Importance of Authentic Communication
- 26:01 Understanding Communication Dynamics
- 28:09 The TAP Framework: Truthful, Authentic, Purposeful
- 30:33 Vulnerability in Leadership
- 33:11 Emotional Barriers: Frozen, Flooding, and Flat
- 38:00 The Impact of Long Tenure on Interview Performance
- 43:35 Linda’s Book and Final Thoughts
Transcript
Renata Bernarde (00:22)
Linda, the reason why I’m having you here today is because, the interview format requires an understanding of body language and mirroring and in a certain tone that some people never really practiced before. So
for the listeners who are hearing about your work for the first time,
How would you describe what you do?
Linda Clemons (00:44)
So what I do, ⁓ and hello to all the listeners, what I do is I travel around the world and I actually have two areas of expertise at which I focus on. Many of my clients, they bring me in as one of the top sales experts in the world and as one of the top body language experts in the world. And that’s my biggest focus. I focus on our original language. That’s the language we were speaking before we were able to say a word. What do I mean? You know, as a baby,
weren’t able to form words, even in primitive, well over 3,000 years, if you will, we weren’t able to use language. So I focus on that nonverbal communication that’s connected to the part of your brain, connected to our limbic system. And that’s that part of the brain that actually protects us called the amygdala. And so Whatever you think about.
Renata Bernarde (01:36)
Yeah.
Linda Clemons (01:38)
it comes about. And that’s why nonverbal communication is so important.
Renata Bernarde (01:41)
And when did you first start noticing body language? Do you remember a time when it started?
Linda Clemons (01:48)
Oh, absolutely, Renata. I can give you the time. I was a youngster. I’m the oldest of four kids. And when you’re the oldest, and by the way, if there are any first borns out there, you can feel for me. Do you know, and I’m going to step to the side. You’re a first born. I’m going to tell you this. Do you know that there was a study that was done that first born women have more stress?
than any other sibling, including first born males. So I have to say that in there to set up the story. So it started as a child, been the first born, and I was very, very, ⁓ what shall I say?
Hyper energy, know, I just, even to this day, I just have a lot of energy, love life, have a lot of energy. Why am I saying that? Because when I was young and in my day, you know, my parents had us going to bed early because we had to get up early for school and they were very strict. Well, when it was time to go to bed, I wasn’t ready to go to bed. So once everyone went to sleep, I waited, looked in their rooms, just to be sure.
And I began to watch television without the sound. I would, ⁓ I would watch different movies until all of a sudden you get that signal where all the programming is gone. I would just laugh without hearing the sound. By the way, and I love silent movies. And it started there. I was able to do it and I did it for 15 years.
Renata Bernarde (03:04)
Yeah.
Well, OK.
Linda Clemons (03:16)
because I was so in tune, even when I went off to college, I did it because I was so in tune watching their body language. And then later on I would put the close caption on to say, I was right. That’s what they were saying. That’s what they were doing. my goodness, he’s going to leave her. my goodness, she’s done with him. She doesn’t want to be there. it, it, it, because of that.
it got stronger and stronger and stronger. And then later on, later on in life, later on in life, I was able to get training by some of the top behavioral scientists and experts in the world, having an opportunity to mentor under them and train under them. And, and here I am. And so they say, some of my clients say being one of the top nonverbal communications expert in the world, what I do is a little different.
all of us out there. And there’s of course, one of the first experts out there in, down there under in Australia, you know, that talks about body language. But what I do is a tad bit different.
Most of us when we’re reading nonverbal communication, we all know the science, but most of us when we’re doing it, you’re waiting for someone to move or sometimes not move based on a question. You’re looking at facial expressions, you’re looking at micro expressions, micro movements. But one of the things that I do, I can read the nonverbal when they’re not moving.
are when they don’t think that they’re moving. So taking that extra layer and people would say to me all the time, come here, can I ask you a question? You you just got off a stage and you had all those volunteers on the stage. Can I ask you, are you psychic? Are you clairvoyant?
Are you highly intuitive? And they would ask me that because I would bring a group of people on stage when I’m doing a corporate presentation or a women’s conference. And I would ask them to freeze. And then I would ask them a question one by one. And when I would ask the first person the question, Renata, I would notice that the second and third person would react, even though they were to be still.
Renata Bernarde (05:25)
Hmm.
Linda Clemons (05:28)
And so I learned to peel the onion and they’re nonverbal. And here’s for everyone listening and watching. It’s very important. The moment that it comes into your mind, it shows up in the matter being your body. So again, I started as a child and of course had some of the best training in the world and created my own methodology, if you will, in reading nonverbal communication.
Renata Bernarde (05:44)
Yeah.
That’s amazing. know, last weekend, the weekend before we were recording this, I did a two-day posture workshop with a very holistic professional. So I learned a lot from her about how things that have happened in our lives, the way that we were raised, know, the culture, the education can affect the way that you
your posture develops over time, right? So ⁓ the weight of responsibilities, you know, making you hunch, you know, and the anxieties that you have in life or the happiness and the way that you grow and develop as a body is so linked to the mind. And I hadn’t thought of that, you know, and now I’m
relearning how to walk and how to stand based on that workshop. So I’m wondering, you know, as well about what you can read from a person just by standing still. Is there anything that you can, just as an example, something that you observed in those people on stage that… ⁓
Linda Clemons (07:15)
Absolutely, absolutely. And I want
to add to what you just said. I want to add to that because there was one individual on stage. It was a female. She was the second person. I had three people on stage and I’m asking the others questions. And then I come to her and I said, you can breathe. said, I told all of you all to stand still, but you can breathe. And then I asked her this question. You’re carrying a lot of weight. You are a caregiver for a female.
Renata Bernarde (07:19)
Okay.
Linda Clemons (07:44)
either your mother or someone in your family. And she broke down crying. See one side of the body represents, and maybe they might’ve shared with you the feminine side, the other side represents the masculine. And she was tilted to the side as if I cannot go on.
Renata Bernarde (08:02)
Mm.
Linda Clemons (08:03)
because
she was dealing with a parent that had dementia and not realizing that it was showing up. She was carrying the weight and it was showing up in her physical demeanor and in her posture. For those that are listening and watching, you know whether it’s a friend, a loved one, a coworker, or someone you admire or respect, or perhaps even disrespect. You can tell if they’re going through something. Say something might have happened that was tragic or that they were sad.
the body, the the posture, their upper carriage is not upright like walking proud. It may be the shoulders are, you know, pulled forward, the head may be down. These are things that are screaming at us without saying a word. So when I notice, and I just ask her the question, but notice the tone in which I’m doing it. And because the communication theory talks about the tone. So even the tone I said, you know what?
It looks like you are carrying a lot of weight.
Renata Bernarde (09:07)
Right.
Linda Clemons (09:07)
And then I did a connecting gesture for those that are watching, did a connecting gesture. my hand, when I say connecting gesture for those that are listening, you’re taking your hand and you connect it to your heart. So if I said to you, you and me, when I do the me, I’m pointing to you, but when I do the me, I touch my chest with a heart. So a connecting gesture, I did a connecting gesture. And I said, it’s someone close to you, someone dear to your heart.
Renata Bernarde (09:16)
Mm-hmm.
Thank
Linda Clemons (09:36)
Is it your mother, an aunt, a sister, it’s a female. And then she broke down. Part of it was the tone because I was caressing her, hugging her, soothing her with the tone and the gentleness. I did not go right in her proxemics, meaning her space. I allowed the proper social distance and the tilt of my head in the emotional realm.
Renata Bernarde (09:44)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm.
Linda Clemons (10:03)
to let her know whatever it is I’m connecting with you. So here’s what’s so critical. These things are around us every day. They’re around us every day. But in a world of social media, high tech, I mean, my goodness, seems like the high tech is replacing different roles and responsibilities. So you gotta get on board or otherwise you’ll be off the board if you will.
But I want you to know for everyone out there listening, high tech will never ever replace, at least in my lifetime, high touch. And when you have that presence, when you are 100 % or not a present in another person’s present, not texting, not tweeting, not ordering food, not talking to someone when I’m supposed to be in your presence.
Renata Bernarde (10:43)
Mm.
Linda Clemons (11:02)
when you are 100 % present in their presence. That’s when the magic begins to happen.
Renata Bernarde (11:06)
Mm.
Linda, that’s amazing. I 100 % love what you just said. One of the situations that is very common with my audience is when they are looking for work. There’s so many highly experienced, really great professionals looking for work right now. And they are really humbled by the job search.
Right. It’s very hard to get an interview. So they apply for lots and lots of jobs. They finally get an interview. They go to that interview. And I just wanted you to kind of imagine the situation where your body is showing the anxiety and the nervousness of being in that sort of really important situation where they could do well or not, but they really want the job. ⁓
Linda Clemons (11:58)
Let’s see.
Renata Bernarde (12:02)
Have you learned about how the body behaves under that sort of pressure that could hinder the chance of you getting the job, right? Just by the way that you present yourself in an interview.
Linda Clemons (12:16)
That’s an excellent question. And before I answer that question, let me give your audience some additional information. Let’s say you’ve been struggling out there. I mean, it’s a struggle. And you’re thinking, I’ve got all kinds of degrees, but yet I’m still not getting the J-O-B. I’ve got this degree, that degree, but I’m not getting the J-O-B. And then finally, you get that call. Now here’s what you have to do prior to going in and it’s critical.
Cause some people don’t even think about this. One of the things you want to do and I’m taking for granted that you do, especially if you’re listening to this show, you do your homework well ahead of time. Know every thing.
about your job prospect, know everything about their company. And if you have the opportunity to get intel on the person that’s interviewing you, that’s even better. So remember, you’re the expert in what you do. You’re proficient in what you do. So you know all that you do, but you want to know where you’re going into. Now, why am I saying that? Because it took a while for you to get this interview. Man, you’ve been, it’s been years, you know, your hair,
growing on your resume. It’s been so long. It’s taken that long. So when you go in, if you are not prepared, when you are prepared, prepared, that gives you the confidence, the courage, and that allows you to have a commitment to win. And guess what? Guess what? You’ll be calm because you have the information.
You’re equipped with the tools. You know what it takes. If you know about the interview, you’re like, Oh my gosh, the person that’s interviewing me, they said on XYZ board, they’re part of this organization. They’re active. So you’ve got things to build an instant rapport and that alone allows you to be calm. Now. Okay. Now you’re at the door. It was Stephen Covey. This said, begin with the end in mind. How do you want this interview to go?
How do you want them to feel when you leave their presence? Wow. Do you want them to feel like, Hey, I don’t need to interview anyone else. That’s the right one. So when you begin with the end in mind, since the subconscious mind doesn’t know the difference between falsehood and reality, then all of a sudden the brain begins to prepare yourself for the battle or the victory. So now you’re in the interview. If you don’t do what I’m recommending,
and you’re anxious and you’re nervous. It can also come across as a little uneasy. It can also come across as a little desperate. have to tell my sales people out there that when they haven’t had a sale in months or weeks, so it seems, then they begin to have commission breath.
And when you’re a little desperate, then all of a sudden your movements become a little assertive versus being cool, calm, collected, and committed with confidence and courage. You’re sitting upright. You’re sitting at the edge of your seat. I know you’re taking notes. You cannot listen to this fabulous show and not take notes. So you’re sitting at the edge of your seat.
Renata Bernarde (15:09)
Mm.
Linda Clemons (15:36)
straight up. Cause remember Renata went to that posture class with your core straight up. And by the way, a confident shoulders back, head level. When I say head level, your mom and dad used to say, Hey, keep your chin up. Don’t tilt your head back, but level looking at the interviewer and you’re sitting at the edge of your seat, which is called seat ready. And it allows you to sit at the edge and move from your core.
As if you know you’re just like walking into that position. You are stepping into that position. If you come in exasperated and exhausted and sitting in the chair where you’re hunched back like this, and then look, it doesn’t even look like there’s an excitement, any urgency about the job. But if you’re sitting up straight with the foot, the lead foot, whether you’re right or left foot, pointed towards the end of your feet or pointed in the direction.
that we want to go, that you can lean in exposing your palms, being animated with the 43 facial muscles that you have. It’s smiling, great eye contact, and you’re on your game. It is very, very important. You cannot walk in there in sheer desperation because it shows.
Renata Bernarde (16:36)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Yes, Linda, I love that. had never thought about the way you sit on the chair, know, the sitting on the edge sounds such an obvious thing. One of the other things that is a real disappointment for candidates that are well prepared and walk into an interview very well prepared is when they notice the lack of nonverbal communications coming from the interviewers. Right. And
This can happen for several reasons, Linda. Sometimes if you’re interviewing three, four five candidates in a row, you may have already fallen in love with a candidate that you’ve interviewed just the hour before. So because of that, the interviewer tends to shut down a bit and not make a lot of eye contact because they’re thinking, I just need to go through these next interviews. I’ve already chosen my person. Right. ⁓
Linda Clemons (17:47)
And in my book,
talk about flat. They could just be flat, just neutral, just flat, just flat. And you’re thinking, I’m not getting any feedback. I’m not getting any energy. I’m going to address that. want to address that. Well, you’ve got some good questions. You should have your own podcast. Really quickly, going back to the, ⁓ the posture. want to bring this up because you said something in it and, and I forgot to mention it for the women out there.
Renata Bernarde (17:50)
Yes, yes, yes.
Yeah. Okay. You should be a coach. ⁓
Yeah.
Linda Clemons (18:17)
And it could be for the men too, but specifically for the women, don’t cross your legs because it distorts your posture. Don’t cross your legs. You can lose circulation if you will. Keep both feet flat on the floor and make sure that your seat ready. Now, let’s say you’re talking to that interviewer. You or she, are they? That’s a little flat that you’re saying, look.
Renata Bernarde (18:23)
Mmm.
Linda Clemons (18:43)
You’re an animated person. Let’s say you’re a kinesthetic person or let’s say you’re a visual person. So if you’re visual dominated learner, kinesthetic learner, if you’re one of those, you’re looking visually at everything. You’re looking, she’s not smiling. He’s not smiling. He didn’t give me any validation. But what if that individual could be an introvert or what if they are an analytical?
dominated communicator. So in the way they perhaps maybe listen, they may listen where their focus constantly focused on you. Now, reason why this is important, you can cast judgment just because someone’s not smiling or giving you validation. You can cast judgment and then you could turn the interview totally opposite. But here’s what you can do. Remember what I said.
Do your homework, do your research, find out everything you can about the company. And here’s a little bonus, find out everything you can about their competitor. You’ve got all that, you know it, and you know everything about the interviewer. You have to be able to get them at hello. When you get them at hello, they’ve been interviewing all day. You don’t know if you’re number one or number 10.
And the first thing you do, you’re walking into the room and you notice the room, give genuine and authentic compliments. Okay. Because it allows them to exhale.
and you begin to build that instant rapport. What if they have something on their desk? And what if they’re fraternal or sorority colors? What if they have something that you actually went to the same university? Now you have something to create a commonality. People like to talk to people that they have things in common with. But when you compliment, and I say genuine, don’t tell someone they have a million dollar smile and they only got two little teeth in their head. Don’t do that.
But when you do a genuine compliment or acknowledgement, that’s the thing that shifts their mode because guess what? They have to change their expression and say, thank you. And that starts it right there.
Renata Bernarde (20:53)
Yeah.
Hmm.
That’s wonderful. I love that. ⁓ Okay, I have another great question for you, I think. It’s an important one. It’s the fact that ⁓ they get into an interview and they have practiced what we call the behavioral questions. So they start questions. Tell me about a time when you had to deal with a complex issue. Tell me about a time when you had to, ⁓ you know, manage this sort of type of project. These are questions that my clients might
my listeners as well may feel very comfortable answering because it’s their area of expertise. But the first questions in an interview are never those questions. The first questions in an interview are, tell me about yourself. Why did you leave your last organization? Why do you want this job? So especially the why did you leave your last organization? When they’ve been laid off or fired or something, you know, it’s a very tricky question to answer.
I am assuming that if they over practice it, but they’re not, ⁓ they’re not honest about it, it comes out weird.
Linda Clemons (22:13)
Right.
Absolutely, absolutely. And if they’re not honest about it, you may see it in the words, but the nonverbal is going to show it. So here’s what you’ve got to do. Say, let’s say you left your job unhappy. And here’s what you want to remember. At that particular time, I left my last company because at that particular time, at that moment, I was seeking other greater opportunities where I can utilize my skills and my talents.
Renata Bernarde (22:19)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Linda Clemons (22:43)
the great benefit that I received from that company when I started. See, you can be mad, just like when people get a divorce. See, just like when people get a divorce, when people tell me, I’m getting a divorce, I’m done, I’m done. So you got a divorce from your last company. But what was it about the company that made you fall in love with them and say yes in the first place? So the way you do that politically, because you don’t want the interviewer to think, well, gosh, things don’t go well with us.
Renata Bernarde (22:48)
Right.
Linda Clemons (23:10)
Will they go out and bad mouth us? So I left it so that I can continue to grow. I’ve outgrown my talents and skills there. And what I did learn from working with the company is this, and now I want to be able to see how I did that without being nasty, if you will. So there are ways to be able to do it, but it has to be genuine and authentic. Let me just quote the study.
Renata Bernarde (23:12)
Mm.
you
Yeah.
Linda Clemons (23:37)
by Dr. Mahrabian, because I know there’s some analyticals out there that says, what’s the science behind all this stuff? There was a study that was done well over 50 years ago out of UCLA by Dr. Mahrabian. It’s called the communication theory. Now in his study, because it’s a new day and time, it’s all over 50 years ago, but let’s take the study and just make it relevant right now. In his study, he found that our words are 7 % of our communication.
7%. So if you think about that, I want to challenge you with this question. Are the words that are coming out of your mouth, are they powerful or powerless, poison or potent, passionate or passive? Do you know just saying the word cancer is feared in over 12 languages. Once the words are out, you cannot retrieve them.
And one of the things that I tell my clients and my students, that the words that are coming out of your mouth, do you want them to motivate, empower, elevate, equip, transform? Do you want the person to be better or bitter? So your words are critical. And what if we don’t speak the same language? Wow, 7%. In the study, they found that 38 %…
of our communication is tonality. You might have heard this saying, it’s not what you say, it’s how you say it. But I beg the different, it’s not just what you say and how you say it. Renata, it’s what they hear. It’s what they hear. So if I said, I saw Steve and Sandy at the mall the other day and they were alone, big deal, Linda. But if I said it like this, I saw Steve and Sandy.
them all the other day and they were alone. Wow, just from the tone. You don’t have to be looking at me. You don’t have to be watching me right now. Just from the tone, you could create a narrative of something going on with Steve and Sandy. Just from the tone, 7 % words, 38 % tonality. And according to that study, 55 % of our communication is nonverbal. So why is that important? It’s the part of your brain called the amygdala.
Renata Bernarde (25:55)
Mm.
Linda Clemons (26:01)
also known as the truth brain, houses a lot of emotions. And you might’ve heard the phrase and that drives me nuts, fake it till you make it. My new phrase is the fake will fade because the truth brain, no matter what your words say, if it’s not truthful, we’ll send it in the real language. It’s your body language. So watch this. So Linda, what do you think about the new director, your new boss?
What do you think about the new VIP? Do you like them? Now watch, now you heard the words. Watch, watch this. He’s okay. She’s okay. Uh-oh. What did you notice? I said the words. He’s okay. She’s okay. Or what if I said, yeah, they’re okay. Yeah, I like them.
Anytime you say, but the word said yes, but what did my body say? Anytime you see asymmetrical movements like the shoulder shrug I just did, it cancels out the verbal. So one of the things you can practice, but unless you are an Oscar winning actor, a good actor, method train, it’s more likely your gestures you don’t practice.
with your words, you only practice the words. So it has to be in you. And I’m going to give everyone a little acronym so they can remember. Very important, because you could have left your last job bad circumstance. know, just it was a, we just had, we respectfully had a disagreement. It just didn’t work. And I thought it’s best that I move on to be able to explore my talents.
Renata Bernarde (27:20)
⁓
Linda Clemons (27:44)
If it’s not T, so here’s your word, tap, T-A-P, think of tap dance. If it’s not truthful, if it’s not authentic, which is the letter A, then it won’t show up in the P, which is the proof. So when you are truthful and authentic, it shows up in the proof.
Renata Bernarde (28:03)
Hmm?
Linda, I think that the difficulty that people have with the TAP framework, truthful, authentic, purposeful, which is 100 % behind you, is that a lot of people in the corporate world feel like they need to present without vulnerability. They need to present without doubt.
Linda Clemons (28:28)
Mmm.
Renata Bernarde (28:32)
without, know, they need to play cool. They need to be the cool, collected person that has that aura of confidence and skills and leadership. It’s an old fashioned way of thinking about it. I get it. But because I work with professionals that are older, that’s how they were raised to be as corporate professionals. It’s kind of new now.
Linda Clemons (28:50)
Absolutely.
Renata Bernarde (29:02)
for us to be vulnerable, for us to open up, for us. And it affects their ⁓ understanding of their executive presence. Executive presence is now a very loaded term, right? Because it is an important thing to have. However, if it’s misunderstood in the world, it can also mean we
we only look for candidates that fit in this sort of format, right? That there is no diversity in executive presence for some, right? So it’s kind of difficult for them to have that conversation. So they prefer to lie with their words and their bodies rather than acknowledge the challenges in their careers. And they may not know how to do that.
Linda Clemons (29:50)
Hmm.
Renata Bernarde (30:00)
in a way that maintains their executive presence. I hope I’m making sense. I’m just sort of thinking out loud here with you.
Linda Clemons (30:06)
I want to address,
you’re doing fine. ⁓ this was a saying, what a tangle web we weave when we try so hard to deceive. And so let me just tell you what takes place and the stress that goes on in your body. And I want to let you know the leaders that, that have the greatest impact on me. I don’t get excited how you stand with the great.
Renata Bernarde (30:14)
That’s exactly right.
Linda Clemons (30:33)
I get excited when you’re able to kneel with the least of them. So it’s not just being vulnerable. What it is your people, your team, the people that you’re going to lead or manage, they want to know that you are human because if you’re perfect, then I’m going to question.
what your EQ is like, your emotional intelligence. So it’s not just showing or demonstrating for the men out there listening and the women vulnerability. It’s showing that you do possess at least an ounce of humanity. What did you do as a leader when you made a mistake? That’s what they’re watching. Remember the saying action speaks louder than words.
Renata Bernarde (31:17)
Mm.
Linda Clemons (31:25)
People don’t want to hear the sermon as my granny would say, they want to see it. So it’s not just how you, what you say, it’s how you show up and how you take responsibility and how you have a level of sensitivity, how you’re able to empathize and feel compassion. Because let me ask you this, for those that want to make sure they’ve got the executive presence and that they’re perfect.
Is there anyone on earth that’s perfect? And I want to ask you this question. Do you want to work for someone who’s perfect? Because today will remind you of the things of your imperfections and the areas where you show weakness. So people like connecting and following leaders who are real.
And so you show up your professional self, your proficient self, your competent self. That shows up because when you’re competent in confidence, it’s in your language. It’s in your movement, your words, your tone, your nonverbal. They’re congruent. When you have passion about something, you’re speaking with that dominant hand. You’re emphasizing, you’re punctuating when you’re unsure unconsciously, non-consciously.
Renata Bernarde (32:20)
Yes.
⁓
Linda Clemons (32:46)
You use the other hand to be able to emphasize, my goodness. So you want to show up competent and knowing that the areas that you do know and proficient in, let them know. And the areas that you know what, that’s not my strength. And that’s an area that I’ve been working on. And let them know. Because guess what? Again, the fake will fade, family. It will fade.
Renata Bernarde (33:03)
Mm. Mm.
Yeah,
I love that. Thank you so much for sharing that with us. I know we don’t have a lot of time left, but I didn’t want to finish without ⁓ addressing what you describe as frozen, flooding and flat. Can you explain to the audience what that means, those emotional barriers?
Linda Clemons (33:28)
So, yes, so frozen
is like, have you ever come up on someone and you’re talking to them and they’re just like a statue. There’s no movement, they’re frozen, it’s like no life, no energy. And lots of times people who are going through something, a mild depression, people who are disconnected, people who are done. As a matter of fact,
There was a study that has done that a person who has made up their mind to commit suicide, there’s a momentary time when they make up their mind, they’ve already pictured it, they become frozen. When you’re disconnected and you’re about to leave the job, you’re done.
You could become frozen. So there’s no heat. There’s no warmth. There’s no energy coming from that person when they’re simply frozen. It’s like, hello, is anyone home? Are you there? yeah, I’m sorry. I’m sorry. I was somewhere else frozen. Flooding happens when you’ve got, and you mentioned it earlier, you know, I’ve been out here struggling, looking for a job, something in my area.
This has happened going on with my family expenses. Everything is happening. And then all of a sudden, perhaps they ask you a question in the interview that could be an emotional trigger. that emotional trigger happens, it’s going to happen for men and women. And many of you might’ve experienced it in your personal life.
Renata Bernarde (34:58)
Mm.
Linda Clemons (35:07)
when someone is going through so much and they hold it in because they’re trying to be strong and then all of a sudden you’ll say to them I’m here are you okay is is everything okay is everything going okay with your home family and they start flooding everything comes out all the emotions all this all the words stories disjointed and it’s just the floodgates are open and when that happens especially in our interview it can make the interviewer
on easy because it may come across is that you do not have discipline or mastery or control over your emotions. And flat is, imagine someone who speaks, you notice that my vocal tone goes up and down, my tone changes, but someone who is flat in their communication and their energy.
Renata Bernarde (35:47)
Mmm.
Linda Clemons (36:00)
Their words often sound like this. So Linda, are you excited about the job? Yeah, I’m really excited about the, you know, getting started. ⁓ Can I ask you, when do I get my first vacation? And, you know, do I get a corner office? It’s just no energy, no fire, no life. It’s just flat. Imagine your favorite dish without all the herbs and seasoning, and then you taste it.
Renata Bernarde (36:12)
Hmm.
Mmm.
Linda Clemons (36:29)
and it’s flat. And we could come across like that without all the fire, the energy, or the impersonality seasonings, if you will.
Renata Bernarde (36:39)
I love that. And you know, the thing about ⁓ working for a long tenure in an organization, let’s say you start off really young and you’ve been in the same organization for 10, 15, 20 years, being frozen, flooding your flat is not a problem for you because people may know that you’re good at your job and they will they will say, ⁓ that’s just, you know how she is, but she’s excellent at her job. So people
put that aside because they know that you are a master at what you do. When you go into the workforce, you lose your job, you cannot have frozen, flooding or flat demeanor in an interview. So all of that stuff that has been neglected and you haven’t received feedback about now is the problem during an interview situation.
⁓ when I was consulting with a recruitment company, executive search company, so it was senior level then. And I said, ⁓ guess what? This wonderful woman just lost her job. I know her really well. She’s super senior. Let’s get her for a conversation. I think you’re going to really like her as a candidate for your clients. And I was very new to this and she came.
Linda Clemons (37:41)
Mm-hmm.
Renata Bernarde (38:00)
and she just flooded everybody. Like she was so, so emotionally hurt by the, it was too soon. I learned a lesson from that, you know, as a coach, never to put people in this, on the spot before their time. Give them self permission to feel human with their friends and their mentors before they are in front of a recruiter. It was too soon for her. Yeah.
But I see a lot of flat people as well, people that have, ⁓ yeah, especially depending on the profession as well, if they’ve been in-house working as, let’s say, accountants or, you know, very internal roles, they’re not very used to going out into the market talking to people because unlike the people that you train who are sales professionals, they’re always out there talking to people. There are some people that work in-house and they’re usually more flat because that’s…
how they perceive to be a professional demeanor. So.
Linda Clemons (38:58)
I gotta tell you that you said something,
you said a couple of good things and I don’t want to miss it. There was, at one of the companies that I worked for, what was so interesting, their CFO was flat.
You know, but everyone got their bonuses, their checks. He was brilliant at what he did. And then one of the employees went out to the, you know, on the weekend, they went out with some friends to the club and they saw the CFO in a band, a rock band. Totally shocked. Totally shocked. She couldn’t get it out of her head. This flat person had another side. They were only able to see.
Renata Bernarde (39:13)
Mmm.
Yeah
Linda Clemons (39:42)
the one side. So remember you said something earlier when someone has been working in a company a long, long time and you know, ⁓ that’s just Harry. That’s just Linda. That’s just Sally. That’s just that individual. Well, what that is called baseline.
you know the person’s baseline. So if a person comes to work every morning, makes the coffee, singing the same old tune, that’s their baseline. If they, ⁓ you know, have a routine, ⁓ the way they do their papers or the way they talk or they’re up doing their presentations, may they crack their knuckles, that’s their baseline. What if their baseline that when you go in for your review,
Renata Bernarde (40:01)
Right.
Linda Clemons (40:21)
and they don’t look at you, but you know that’s their baseline. You’re not taking it personal. He’s not or she’s not looking at anyone else. But what happens if you leave the company, like Renata said, you leave the company and now you’re going somewhere else with those same baselines, they don’t know. It takes four to eight seconds, four to seven seconds. I’m gonna give you an extra second to make that good first impression. So if I’m going into an interview, let’s say,
Renata sent me on this interview and I’m excited and it was a great referral and I’m excited about the job. But say it’s your old company and I go in and the next thing you know, I’m talking to different people of the team. I’m talking to the director of marketing, director of sales, talking to the lead manager, whoever it may be. And then I meet this one guy. I’m gonna use my brother’s name, David. I’m talking to David. Everyone else was just open and they kind of matched my personality. I’m thinking, ooh, I’m gonna get the job.
Then I meet this guy, Dave David, and David says, okay, tell me about yourself. I begin to tell him about myself. And then he cuts me off. And then he asked me the same question again. Then I began to tell him about myself. He cuts me off again. Then he picks up the phone. He picks up his phone and he starts ordering food. He said, by the way, hold the mail, doing all of this. And he says, and then he does dismissal. So go ahead, look at my hand. Go ahead, go ahead with your story. And then after that he was done. Okay, I gotta get back to work.
Renata Bernarde (41:43)
You
Linda Clemons (41:46)
I’m leaving. So just think about this. I’m walking out of there feeling deflated. So I called Renata says, look, I don’t know if I got the job or not. I met all the people that you talked about, but this David, I don’t think he likes me. So Renata says, Linda, what happened? my gosh. I go in there to meet him, introduce myself. He asked me a question, cut me off, did it twice. Then right in the middle of conversation starts ordering food. And because it’s your old job, you said, Linda, it’s not you.
That’s David. But how in the heck am I supposed to know David’s baseline? And that’s the same with you. If you leave that company carrying that baseline and you brought up an excellent point, if no one has given you constructive, caring, critical feedback, you or Norm, what you do as a habit, you may think it’s okay and it may turn someone else off.
Renata Bernarde (42:21)
Mm.
Linda Clemons (42:44)
Because now you’re taking those habits and taking it to the new job and it’s not working. It’s not working. And you are missing an opportunity and you don’t know why you didn’t get a met hello. So it’s very important what you said because once you leave, take, when you leave, guess what goes with you? You and your habits and all the other stuff.
Renata Bernarde (43:05)
You’re right.
Yes, I always tell my clients, you have total control when you are in the room with them. Once you walk off, then that’s it. There’s not much else that you can do. So make the most out of it. Address all the elephants in the room. Linda, it’s time to go. I can’t believe it because I have so many questions for you. We have to do this again in the future.
Linda Clemons (43:31)
I mentioned about my
book, you want to talk about my book?
Renata Bernarde (43:35)
Yes, well, we will have a link to your book in the episode show notes. Tell us about your book.
Linda Clemons (43:36)
Yes. Yeah.
Yes, I’m so excited. Many years, many of my clients over the last four decades, I said four decades, you all thought I was 25. Good. I love you already. But over the last four decades, my clients from all over the world that says, you’ve got to put some of this knowledge in the book. Otherwise when you leave this earth, it’ll go with you. And I thought, man, that hit. And my book is coming out nationwide, internationally on January the 6th and the title of the book.
Renata Bernarde (43:49)
You
Linda Clemons (44:10)
is Hush, How to Radiate Power and Confidence without saying a word.
Renata Bernarde (44:17)
That’s so exciting. I’m so happy for you. I keep thinking about writing a book, but I’m too lazy, Linda. I’m not organized enough.
Linda Clemons (44:24)
You get it. You take it. You take it. You take it. That’s what I did. That’s what I did. The whole year,
I just talked my thoughts. And it’ll be easy for you. And then you have a good editor that’ll put it all together.
Renata Bernarde (44:36)
wonderful. Look, I think it’s a great book for the type of audience that we have on the Job Hunting podcast. We will have a link below. By the time this episode goes out, the book will already be on sale. And for those of you who are planning to buy the book, and this happens a lot, people come on the podcast because they have a book and people tell me, I bought the book. If you buy Linda’s book, please go and leave a review. There’s nothing more important than a review. Right? Yes. Go to wherever you bought it. Usually Amazon.
Linda Clemons (45:02)
Yes.
Renata Bernarde (45:05)
and write a review for Linda’s book. Linda, thank you so much for coming and talking to us today. It was lovely.
Linda Clemons (45:08)
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so
much.
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