Episode 307 - From the rise of portfolio careers to the growing importance of digital transformation, the 2025 Interim Executive Survey highlights how executives are choosing new ways of working.

Renata Bernarde (01:35)
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Renata Bernarde (02:46)
So Donna, you are.

a partner in interim executive management at Watermark based in Melbourne. Right. And in our previous episode, we discussed your extensive career and the fact that you come from accounting and HR and then moved into executive search. And I will link that episode in the show notes in case people want to go back in and hear more about you. But today we’re here to talk about Watermark’s 15th

Donna Burr (02:53)
Mm-hmm. Yes.

Renata Bernarde (03:18)
annual interim executive survey. Before we even start talking the survey and the ⁓ report, I want us to define what interim executive management is for those that don’t know exactly what it is. So how would you explain that? Let’s say you were in a barbecue and people were asking you what you do. Yes.

Donna Burr (03:38)
Yeah, sorry.

Over the barbecue conversation. ⁓

So interim executive management simply is being dropped into an organization, ⁓ usually at short notice, to deliver an outcome. So usually you’re fulfilling a role, absolutely. But when you are given the brief, it’s typically a problem you’re coming in to solve. So typically our data would say a six to nine month contract.

helping an organisation. When we say executive, you know, that’s roles that kick in at the 250k ⁓ sort of salary and above across all of the C-suite. So we define that as the CEO role and all of the seats around the table. But coming in in one of those roles on a short-term basis to help ⁓ sort out a problem or sit in the seat for a period of the time while the client’s going through some kind of transformation.

Renata Bernarde (04:40)
And I also want you to explain the concept of a portfolio career, because even if we have listeners who are not at that level of interim executive management, there are opportunities for people to have a portfolio of contracts, consultancies, board roles, that sort of add up to what could be a salary equivalent to a permanent role salary. So how would you define a portfolio career?

Donna Burr (04:58)
Yes.

soon.

Yeah, so when we think about a portfolio, and you raise a really good point, I think the area of the market that Watermark and certainly the survey will talk a little bit more about taps into is the executive end of the market, but the contingent workforce, if you like, so those who are choosing to work on a freelance contract, day rate type basis, I think globally now represents about 46 % of the market. So there’s a groundswell of people who choose to work this way.

at all salary price points across the market. But when we think about a portfolio, you’re often trading a ⁓ permanent salary that you’re fed on a fortnightly monthly basis, engaged with one organization. Most people assign certainty to that sort of role, a permanent role if you like. You’re trading that for a different way of working where you choose to think about

not just your work, but also your personal interest and pursuits, your hobbies, your side hustles as a portfolio. So if you imagine, I imagine a building with a number of pillars and each of those pillars representing potentially a different income stream and or a different hobby and or a different passion pursuit. So you’re sort of trading this one bucket of salary for potentially multiple buckets of salary. And that can be interim work, could be consulting work. ⁓

you know, a whole range of things. You might have elder care, you might have younger care, you might have side hustles, you might have passion projects, you might enjoy travelling. It’s more of a holistic way of thinking about work life, ⁓ is what we would call a portfolio career.

Renata Bernarde (06:51)
Okay. And Watermark has been doing this report for 15 years. So there’s just so much data. There’s just so much data there. And I really want to find out from you what stands out the most about the results from 2025 compared to earlier years.

Donna Burr (06:57)
Yes, feel like it’s my birthday.

Yeah, look thank you and really excited this year to be talking about our 15th year of data. So we’ve got some longitudinal data that we’ve sort of covered over those 15 years which we’ll get into but probably three things stand out for me ⁓ in this year’s data. If I think about the candidate side it’s this real shift from ⁓ thinking about interim work as a bit of a stopgap.

I’ll do this while I’m in between roles to intentionally moving to this as a way of working. And there’s a whole range of reasons why that’s happened, which we’ll dive into. From a client side, the conversation shifted from what is it, do I need to use it, do I need to know about it, to how to actually compete in today’s market and not be tapped into. This is a segment of ⁓ talent to tap into to help our organisation to change and transform.

I think the real element there is that that organizations that are rapidly undergoing change and looking for skills at a point in time and to borrow those skills to help them get through a change, a transformation, a problem, are seeing this as a really kind of strategic way of being able to do that. So a real shift in how clients are thinking about tapping into this market. And I think the third point that came through was just how

AI has revolutionized how we live, how we work, and a lot of themes and data coming through the report around how the interim executives who responded to this survey are leveraging AI to kind of amplify their leadership. And we think are really sort of at the forefront of how that’s playing out in organizations. So they’re probably the three areas.

Renata Bernarde (09:05)
Okay. And I’ve noticed that there were 900 individuals that ⁓ contributed to the survey. And now you have this ⁓ great amount of data. mean, 900 for an Australian market, which is not that big. It’s a huge number ⁓ of people. ⁓ So using that data now, you mentioned your clients. How are you adapting?

Donna Burr (09:24)
Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Renata Bernarde (09:33)
right now based on what you’ve learned from the report? Are you doing things differently in the way that you interact with candidates and with clients?

Donna Burr (09:43)
Yeah, look, thank you. yes, and if any of the 900 listening to this podcast, thank you for contributing to the data set. So from a client perspective, we love having this deep rich information. It is data driven hiring that we’re talking about here. We can talk to our clients about real use cases of where other clients have tapped into the intra market, what they’ve used them for.

roles, problems that solved, outcomes that have been achieved, down to the granular level of this is what it costs to bring in an interim CEO in this size organization. ⁓ And it’s not watermark kind of sort of trying to do the sell job here. This is independent data that’s sort of confirming this is what’s happening in the marketplace. So really ⁓ sort of data-driven hiring on the client side, really robust use cases of where this has worked.

⁓ for them that is broader than just sort of what we do at Watermark. On the candidate side, know, similarly, know, deep rich information, we create avatars each year that represent the people who have responded to the survey. And those avatars again, go into a granular level of information, but really, I think help executives who are choosing to work this way, or maybe at a crossroad and thinking about what we like to call their third act.

and contemplating moving to more of a portfolio way of working, what do they need to do to be successful? How do they set themselves up for success? And we again have data here from 900 executives in the last 12 months who’ve been doing this successfully. And we can really help guide people through that process to really work out if this is the right next step for them or not. And if this is a path they’re going down, how do they best set themselves up for success?

Renata Bernarde (11:32)
Okay. We explained interim executive management more broadly, but now I want to get into ⁓ the specific role reasons why people decide to engage interim executives. And one of the trends that were highlighted in the report is the growth in the interim assignments that are linked to business transformation roles versus

Donna Burr (11:48)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Renata Bernarde (12:02)
filling out ⁓ positions that were, you know, the crisis gap filling that happens, you know, somebody gets hit by a bus and then very quickly you need to find somebody. A couple of questions that I have for you. One, because this is business transformation roles are not crisis gap filling roles, does that delay the process of finding the interim executive? Because, you know, it’s not like, ⁓ we need…

Donna Burr (12:23)
Okay.

Renata Bernarde (12:30)
to have somebody back as a CFO on Monday because our CFO has left. Now the business transformation role, I’m wondering if that extends the recruitment process for interim executives.

Donna Burr (12:47)
No, I think ⁓ the short answer would be no. think the timeframe, we work always to the client’s timeframe, but we can turn around an interim executive in 24 hours. We can turn them around in two weeks. The calls that we get from clients are sit in the two buckets. One is come and sit in the seat of a role.

or two is more framed as a transformation project. So come and sit alongside the incumbent team and while they’re running the business, we need your capacity, bandwidth and expertise to help change the business. But the process for actually bringing them on board absolutely is the same. We would still be looking for the types of problems those executives have solved where they’ve…

done a similar type of transformation, clients have money on the table for what somebody has done. The expectation is when an interim comes in, they over hit the mark. ⁓ And so we will have done our due diligence there and understanding the experience of our network and what they’ve done to be able to sort of turn that around in sort of typically three to four business days, but again, working at the pace of ⁓ the client.

Renata Bernarde (14:06)
Yeah, okay. And what are the main business transformation challenges that you see clients looking for help with?

Donna Burr (14:14)
Yeah, so certainly a consistent theme has been around business turnaround, so actually getting to the root cause and that can be a growth agenda, but it can also be a sort of a cost out, cost cutting agenda. So I’m very aware in the last sort of 12 to 24 months, many organisations and executives who might be listening to this will have been impacted by a number of the cost reduction agendas organisations have had.

productivity gains, optimization, ⁓ but equally ⁓ sort of two speed economy. There are some sectors that are growing. So bringing in an interim to actually help grow new markets, establish new products, establish new, ⁓ you go to market offerings. So the main transformations are typically those more and more we’ve seen though in the last 12 months will be the digital transformation.

So yes, it can be technology platforms. It could be around new ways of working. It could be around re-augmenting the organisational structure and the skills and the teams needed to deliver on certain customer outcomes. So digital transformations become ⁓ a big one. One of the biggest calls for interim skill is certainly in the finance space, certainly from a watermark perspective. I’d say about a third of our placements relate to finance.

Certainly the data that came back from the broader market would indicate something similarly. So that sort of commercial acumen, ⁓ understanding the business drivers, being able to work across, not just swimming in your own swim lane of finance, but working across ⁓ the leadership team, executive team to really drive commercial outcomes has been a consistent ⁓ kind of need ⁓ for many organisations, certainly in the last 12 months.

Renata Bernarde (16:06)
Yeah, interesting. And one of the things I couldn’t find in the report, but I’m wondering if I missed it or maybe you know, ⁓ the gap filling interim roles. So you’re acting CEO, acting ⁓ CIO and whatnot. They are there filling in until a permanent person is appointed. So I’m assuming that six months would be the sort of the tenure that they would stay.

Donna Burr (16:16)
Yes. Yeah.

Renata Bernarde (16:32)
Whereas in the business transformation role, I am assuming that they might be longer than six months. Can you see a difference between those two types of interim as X?

Donna Burr (16:39)
Yes.

Yeah, that’s a really great question. And I guess each assignment ⁓ is quite nuanced. You’re right, even in the sit in the seat of the, say interim CEO while the client is working through an external recruitment process to place the permanent CEO, often those roles aren’t ⁓ steady state, there’s change happening. So, know,

Renata Bernarde (16:50)
Mm-hmm.

Donna Burr (17:12)
they are sitting in the seat but still driving change, owning the reins and making things happen for the time that you’re in that role. Similarly on the transformation, which of course transformations can be multi-year. It really depends whether it’s a set up phase of a transformation to sort of hand back into the business to run with. It’s whether you’re coming in partway through a transformation that hasn’t gone well. So there’s a remediation piece.

⁓ it could be, ⁓ you know, actually ⁓ coming to lead a discrete piece of a broader transformation. Average length of assignments we have been seeing have been between six to nine months. That has been fairly ⁓ consistent, but within that, absolutely, we have some assignments that are multi-year and we have some assignments that we see some assignments that go for four months. So I think you’re thinking is right transformation. ⁓

related assignments tend to have a longer runway. The sit in the seat, depending on how quickly the client can go to market and replace the role, probably a shorter tenured for sure.

Renata Bernarde (18:17)
Yeah.

Yeah. And the reason why I asked this is because I know that when I’m discussing with clients, the opportunity of interim executive ⁓ roles for them, many of them are really interested in that from a romantic perspective. I’d love the lifestyle. I’d love, you know, the

Donna Burr (18:28)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, who wouldn’t?

Renata Bernarde (18:42)
what keeps them from moving in that direction is the constant need to find work. And we have seen that in the poll that we’re running on LinkedIn, as we speak, I’m running a poll and 50 % of the people that said one of the reasons they are not pursuing an interim executive career is the constant need to find work as being the biggest barrier for them. Do you find that that’s why people pull out of interim as work?

Donna Burr (18:46)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yes.

Yes.

Yes, so let’s explore that. When people are choosing to work as an interim executive, we say it’s a stage of life, not an age per se, but it’s a stage. And the motivation to work this way is because they’re choosing not to work full time. And most people who choose to work as an interim as their plan A actually are really excited by the fact that if they’re not working for six months of the year, so they actually don’t want

back-to-back contracts. And we always say, you can be as busy or not as you choose to be. This is your portfolio, you are the architect, you have self agency over how busy or not you choose to be kept. When I’m hearing execs saying, ⁓ I’m choosing not to do it all, I thought it was going to be different to what it is and the bit that I don’t like is having to find work and always be in the market, says to me that there is a need or reliance for this stage of life.

to be more gainfully employed. Now, if you’re coming into interim wanting to be busy for 11 months of the year, you could absolutely do that. How hard you go on your networking and activating those networks, you know, in the market selling yourself will absolutely be a lead indicator of how busy are you and how visible your pipeline of work is.

But if you’re sort of coming into this thinking, well, yes, I need to be busy 12 months of the year, but I don’t want to be doing that work. I want somebody else to solve that problem for me. I don’t want to take agency over the networking. I’m not sure that it’s the right stage to be doing this or the right motivation to be doing it. My question for you is, what are you running from in your current role that makes you think that this way of working is going to be simpler, easier, and so forth?

Renata Bernarde (20:59)
Yes, yes. So, and you mentioned self-agency and I think that there is a rise of self-agency in the corporate world at large, not just if you want a portfolio career and you want interim a ZEC work. I mean, I think people are now realizing that they need to be in control of their careers and network so that if they decide to go for a permanent role or decide to have a portfolio career that they

Donna Burr (21:03)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Renata Bernarde (21:28)
will have a career that’s sustainable over time because 2025 we have had so many layoffs in ⁓ mass. So there’s a lot of scale layoffs happening that people have come to realize they cannot rely on their performance. You know, it has nothing to do with performance. Most of the time, their business decisions that sit outside of that immediate relationship we with your manager, your department. ⁓

Donna Burr (21:31)
Absolutely.

Yeah, yeah, so

true.

Renata Bernarde (21:58)
Yeah. What can you tell about the self agency and how you see it working well for those that want that lifestyle of becoming an interim executive and ⁓ want to be, I mean, you said you can work as much as you want to work, but that requires you to become a ⁓ self promoter.

Right, so what do you see works well for those interim executives that want to be busy?

Donna Burr (22:28)
Absolutely, yep.

Yeah, so I think it’s a couple of things. One is networking hands down. The data says, you know, the executives who responded to this, that 75 % of their work came through their network in an era where we are so digital first and digitally enabled, you know, LinkedIn as a platform for executives, for many job seekers, but certainly for the executive job hunter having visibility.

⁓ through face-to-face ⁓ digital platforms, ⁓ being really ⁓ targeted, strategic and planned about your networking. We talk about it in, or I talk about it in three layers. Most recently, I’ve stolen a term from a candidate I spoke with the other week, but this idea of who is your fan club? So who are the people who are…

your advocates, they are in your court, they understand your skill set, what you’re capable of doing and would advocate on your behalf for others. you know, great channels to market. So who are your fan club? Who are then your next layer of advocates who, ⁓ you know, perhaps people you’ve worked with long time ago who had a good experience of you, but maybe you need to be reconnecting there and updating on sort of what you’ve done, ⁓ you know, in the meantime to bring them into the fan club.

And then who is that network that you haven’t tapped into yet and how are you gonna tap into them? So being really quite strategic about who is that network. ⁓ I guess self-agency is not relying on anybody else to solve this for you. You are the pilot of your aircraft and being quite planned, considered and thoughtful about that ⁓ is going to be key. So networking is one, being clear on what we call your superpowers, what’s your value proposition.

you know, not fronting up to a conversation expecting again somebody else to solve this for you, but being really quite clear about where you add value and how that person can help you. ⁓ I think being able to consistently demonstrate, you know, value that you’ve delivered, you know, being able to talk to that, ⁓ being proud of that, being current. So it’s not about just experience in whatever area you’ve done. You may have 25, 30 years experience as a…

chief financial officer, but what have you done in the last couple of years? How are you keeping current in your craft? How are you demonstrating that? How are you bringing that into your conversation? Agency is being proactive about all of these things. It’s how you’re being curious about digital literacy and AI, about new things that are impacting the sector. It’s being interested. Again, agencies is being proactive in doing that. So…

You know, an interim portfolio way of working suits people who are very much motivated, planned and have a plan around that and sort of start the day with a purpose and, you know, kind of tackle each of those things. You know, if that’s not you, then I think building a sustainable pipeline of work will be challenging because you need to front into those things and take ownership.

In our networks, those executives who choose this as their plan A and have been doing it for a number of years, absolutely have self agency ⁓ in spades and do have a sustainable sort of portfolio of work to the level that they want. And that looks different for everybody.

Renata Bernarde (25:58)
Yes, I love that you mentioned that. I’m working with clients as I always do that are making that transition from permanent roles to a portfolio career and even workshopping with them and making sure that we are planning it intentionally and avoiding risks. It’s still very, it’s a different routine, right? And it’s a routine that you…

Donna Burr (26:21)
Yes.

Renata Bernarde (26:24)
you want to have, but then when you actually have it, you don’t know what to do with it because there is a lot of free time. the time shouldn’t actually be free if you want to be busy, right? If you don’t want to be busy all the time, yes, go to the golf course, do whatever and travel. But if you want to have a portfolio career that is busy and intense, then that free time is used upskilling.

Donna Burr (26:31)
There is.

Renata Bernarde (26:51)
connecting, networking, going to events. And that is work, right? That is work for an interim executive.

Donna Burr (26:53)
Yep. It is work.

And it’s discipline

and it’s consistency. It’s not, I’ll do that this week and then, that was a little bit too hard. I’ll take a couple of weeks off. It’s like anything that you want to get better at. We can always get better at everything that we put our mind to. It’s discipline, consistency and having a plan around that.

Renata Bernarde (27:15)
Yes. And I will have to timestamp this episode and send this bit to my clients. Because when you come from large scale corporate environments where busy means being at meetings and answering emails and doing reports all the time, it’s such a different attitude that you need to have when you are in charge of your career and making sure that 70 % of the time.

Donna Burr (27:21)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Renata Bernarde (27:45)
that you’re not employed, that you’re using it so that you will become employed in the near future. So all the prospecting of clients and the thought leadership that you need to create, that’s all part of being an interim executive or if you’re not at that level, being a portfolio career professional.

Donna Burr (27:50)
Absolutely.

Absolutely,

and many of the executives will say to us ⁓ that, know, exactly that while you’ve got one eye or one hand in the work, so doing the work, the other is absolutely always, you know, on the business as much as being in the business. And it is definitely different way of thinking. Definitely not for everybody, but it does require the discipline and a plan and…

You know, there are many examples out there and executives who are doing this and kind of loving the work that they’re doing, doing meaningful, ⁓ purposeful work for whatever that means for them ⁓ and enjoying kind of life and, you know, ⁓ a mixture of all the other sort of projects and side hustles and things that they like to do. But it’s not just gifted to them. They’ve architected that. They’ve really worked hard at that, you know, and it takes time.

Renata Bernarde (28:58)
All right. Let’s switch gears, Donna, and talk about the gender balance or lack of. It’s great to see that there has been a boost in women interested in interim executive roles. So 19 % in 2011 and now 33 % in 2025. So we’ve grown. I’m assuming that part of that growth has been the fact that more women are in senior positions since

Donna Burr (29:01)
Mm.

Renata Bernarde (29:28)
we are looking at the top tier professionals here. But do you also see more women interested in interim executive versus permanent roles?

Donna Burr (29:30)
Mm-hmm. Yep.

Yeah, so I think it’s two things. Yes, societal shifts. you know, I think interim as an employment stream and as a way of working, be it permanent roles or others, is impacted by the societal shifts that we’re seeing around gender and have seen around gender over the number of years. I would say when I look at the data, we saw a real uptick in women opting into this way of working post-COVID. ⁓

And again, a lot of anecdotal ⁓ reasons for that. the flexibility that a tech enabled way of working was really amplified at that point in time, certainly assisted many women in making the transition, being able to multitask and do a range ⁓ of ⁓ commitments, if you like, work being one of them at the time. So we saw a real uptick around then. ⁓

And look, yeah, absolutely. think as we’re seeing more women societally ⁓ moving to see sweet roles again, that will play its part here. ⁓ I don’t think there’s barriers per se. I think we are hopeful just looking at the data that there will be sort of parity in those numbers as we get closer to 2040. That’s just sort of following the trend line as we go through. To be frank, what I think is going to be more of an opportunity that’s ⁓

candidates and organisations need to embrace is the inclusion part. So, you know, I think we’ll all agree diversity in all forms, gender being a big part of it at the C-suite is going to yield better outcomes for businesses and organisations commercially, in society and so forth. But as we think about five generations in the workforce, as we think about a workforce that is ageing well, so a longer health span, you know,

on average that the people have people who are choosing to work later in life, partly for motivation and personal satisfaction, partly for money and need that we’ll need to think differently as a society about how we embrace those various generations and support people working for longer in the workforce. I think, you know, I think gender balance, yes,

You know, one thing I feel like society’s made a lot of shifts as it relates to gender. think that equally applies in the interim space. I think a bigger thing for us to tackle there is going to be around inclusion.

Renata Bernarde (32:09)
Interesting. And talking about inclusion and longevity, another big change since 2011 is age. You know, it has doubled the number of interim executives that are now over 60, 60 and above. And that has been a current conversation with other guests. You know, the fact that CEOs are now…

Donna Burr (32:17)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Renata Bernarde (32:37)
older and we have older senior professionals staying for longer in the workplace. That is great. mean, as a generation X, you’re a generation X as well. I’ve always known that I wouldn’t be able to afford retiring at 50 like my father did. So I think that we are seeing that. Do you think also there is, you know, we are healthier than we’ve ever been?

Donna Burr (32:50)
Yes.

Yes.

Renata Bernarde (33:05)
I mean, I’m talking about you, you’re definitely healthier than I am. So tell me about these amazing interning executives that are over 60. What sort of roles they are getting with Watermark? What are they interested in? What’s working for them?

Donna Burr (33:08)
This is a passion area of mine for sure, yep.

Yeah,

yeah. It’s a great question. think it builds on what we’re sort of saying about this interesting demographic we have in the market now. are very much skewed to the over 50 cohort, 60 plus cohort in the market ⁓ working, ⁓ but also at a time where we have…

health technology that supports people being more informed about their wellbeing and enables them more strategies to live well for longer. So improvement in health span. so, you know, many people who choose this as their plan are doing a number of things. One, we almost have this kind of audit of their life inventory, if you like. So finances are one thing, health and wellness is another thing. ⁓

being really clear around their purpose, passion, what is meaningful work. These people no longer choose to work or are defined by role. So they’ve kind of parked ego at the door. Now is about being really clear on their skill base and what value that they can add to an organization. So I think, you know, again, perfect timing where we’ve got organizations that are becoming more fluid, more agile.

less rigid about roles, but really now clear on this sort of skills economy, what are the skills that they need for the future. It’s a perfect pairing for our interim executive cohort who are very clear about the skill set that they kind of bring to the table. You know, what you’re also getting when you bring in an interim executive is, you know, these 40 years of experience, leadership experience, critical thinking.

how they respond in a crisis, an agile and adaptable way of working, problem solving that’s refined and has seen a lot of problems. so it’s that that clients are tapping into. think, interim’s again, it’s a stage of life. There’s a motivation to take agency of how the next, or what I call the third act plays out for them.

⁓ And I’m having multiple conversations every other day with people who’ve hit that point. And it comes to me, or the conversation will start like, I wanna keep working, I feel well and healthy, I’m actively taking agency over my health, wellbeing, I’m in a fortunate ⁓ financial position where…

I still need to earn money, but I don’t have sort of school fees, mortgages and some of those other financial burdens you do as you’re going through other stages of life. And now I wanna take ownership and work in a different way. I wanna continue working into my seventies or eighties, but I choose to do that on different terms. So the motivation for moving this way is typically that. It’s a particular stage. It’s a reflection on…

broader life, ⁓ meaning purpose, adding value, obviously being rewarded for that, but the driver isn’t about being busy necessarily for 12 months of the year working. For some it is, absolutely, but, and again, as we already referred to, how busy you are will depend on how active you choose to be around your networking, but for many, it’s a motivation to…

to see out sort of the next 20 years of their career in a different way.

Renata Bernarde (37:00)
Yeah. Okay. And looking at the results from the survey, which was done in Australia, have you and the team, have you been able to look at that in comparison to what you know about what’s happening overseas in interim executive ⁓ management? What things you think are the same and what is sort of very Australian that you don’t see in international data?

Donna Burr (37:07)
Yes.

Mmm.

Yeah,

a lot of synergies overseas. we, Watermark are affiliated with a global network of interim executive practices. And certainly in the last six months, I’ve had conversations with our Italian, French and Spanish counterparts just to understand a little bit more about their market and what does the interim executive offering look like? What are clients ⁓ tapping into there? What is the motivation and drivers for ⁓

executives to choose to work that way. A lot of similarities. From a client perspective, it absolutely ⁓ is around transformation and change. ⁓ For the intrams themselves, it absolutely is this motivation around a stage of life. ⁓ Obviously, the size of market in Europe, UK, US is larger than Australia, so the market there is bigger. ⁓ But I think the signals and the growth of this way of working

it’s a global, it’s not an Australian based phenomenon, if you like, we’re following the lead of the other countries. But I think, as I said earlier, 46 % of the world work in a contingent way. When I delve deeper into what sort of percentage of those who are working in a contingent way really sit more at the executive end, it’s probably about 10 % of that

10 % of that group. So just to sort of give a sense but from a global perspective a lot of similarities.

Renata Bernarde (39:05)
Yeah, one thing that I was really surprised talking about the level of the roles for interim as X. I was really surprised that it’s really 90 % of interim roles that are C-suite. I thought that there were more heads of as well. Maybe, you know, I did a short term contract with you and your team back in 2020 just before the pandemic. And I remember heads of roles coming.

Donna Burr (39:13)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Renata Bernarde (39:33)
in. Are they not as common these days?

Donna Burr (39:36)
So I guess just to preface, this is the Australian market data versus where Watermark plays, there is a lot of similarities, but certainly of the 900 who responded to this survey, 90 % of the placements they were doing were at the C-suite. And I think the driver for that is again, the shift that is happening within organization and this craving for leadership that is able to drive digital transformation that can

⁓ lead through ambiguity, is adaptable, is agile. ⁓ You know, there’s a strong governance and regulatory overlay across many sectors at the moment. So somebody who can kind of steer the ship through that. Typically that comes at that C-suite level, be it CEO level or around the table. And if these are the issues that are tackling sort of businesses today, I think there’s a direct link then if they’re buying that for a short period of time, it makes sense that it’s at that level. ⁓

Certainly within Watermark, much of our data would reflect that. We probably also can tap into that next level. So the head of director level depending, and again, it depends on the size and scale of organization too. We probably more tap into a salary band as opposed to just the title. But yeah, I’m not surprised that 90 % of the roles were C-suite, that a quarter of those were CEO roles, given the types of problems that

clients are coming to us for.

Renata Bernarde (41:07)
Got it. Okay. Now, if we’re thinking about listeners who are not C-suite professionals, but they want the portfolio career lifestyle, what are the other avenues for them? So I’m assuming, well, for you, maybe Watermark International is not the right avenue for you. Would it be freelancing? Would it be working with recruiters that do short-term contracts, personal network? Can you give ⁓ some advice for professionals?

Donna Burr (41:12)
Mm-hmm. Yep.

Yeah, yeah.

I think all of the above and all of those channels, I think when you’re choosing to work in a portfolio way, it’s being really strategic about the channels to market that you have that align to, you know, whatever your area of expertise is. So that might look a little bit different for, you know, if you’re, I don’t know, in finance versus if you’re in the sort of graphics and media, for instance. ⁓

But I think the things that are consistency, self-agency, mean, you know, do a self-check there, what is your motivation for working this way? Or I say you’re running towards this as a way of working and why, or are you running from something and maybe kind of spend some time working out and solving for that first. Networking key, ⁓ identifying fan clubs, advocates, your new channels, being quite, you know, targeted around mapping that out ⁓ is something to be. ⁓

you know, thinking about and even if this isn’t a, you know, I’m not moving to this right now, but you know, I could see in the future, this is something I’m thinking about. Now’s the time to start thinking about that, you know, while you’re in a role, while you’ve got income, while you’ve got work, think about how you might approach this. I mean, now’s the best time to be doing that. But networking is one. Continue to find experiences that really refine your EVP. What are the skills? What are the things? Do an inventory of your skills? What are the things that you enjoy doing?

⁓ And not only what you enjoy doing, but the market wants to buy and obviously, you know, that can ebb and flow over time, but the networking and value proposition would be again, two of the lead indicators. I think if you’ve got that down pat, ⁓ you know, plus your why, like anything, you know, this gets hard. So what are you going to come back and anchor to when it gets really, really hard is your why. So being really clear on why you’re sort of running to this as a way of working.

Renata Bernarde (43:28)
Yes. And I think part of that, ⁓ that combination of things that you need to start including in your career strategy is AI. You mentioned that a few times. I noticed that your colleague has written an article today on LinkedIn about it. I’m going to put a link in the show notes ⁓ so that people can find it. But AI as a leadership amplifier, I love that term.

I want you to explain what that means. I mean, I’m thinking that it’s obvious that the interim executives that are working with Watermark are now using AI tools because, know, 90 % of interim executives that responded to the survey are using AI tools. I am still encountering executives and experienced professionals that reach out to me for career coaching and I start working with them and they don’t even have.

Donna Burr (43:59)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Renata Bernarde (44:27)
a chat to BT account yet, so I still have them and bless them, but we need to sort of educate ourselves before we go back into the workforce into another role we need to. Having said that, the report shows that only 3 % of organizations have adopted AI. So there’s this discrepancy about individualization of the AI experience versus

Donna Burr (44:38)
Yeah.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Renata Bernarde (44:56)
incorporation of AI in the business. Explain that to me. How does that translate?

Donna Burr (44:59)
Yes.

Yep.

So a couple of things, very, I’m very, very personally passionate about AI and very curious and find lots of ways to incorporate that in my day to day. But to answer a couple of things you’ve said, one, how is, you know, this term of AI amplifying our interim executives, how? I’d say really in three ways. One is absolutely a productivity piece. So they are using AI to do some of the more administrative ⁓

tasks, writing a first cut ⁓ piece of work for them that sort of gets it 80 % right. ⁓ It could be as simple as diary management and using AI to kind of automate that. ⁓ A range of automation tools so they are spending more of their time on the things that are important, the critical thinking, the judgment, the human side, and I’ll come back to that in a moment.

I think one of the key things is better decision making. So a lot of examples where AI is being used to synthesize large amounts of data, which we know these large language models can do that better than we humans will ever be able to do that. But really to synthesize a whole lot of information to give input into decisions and discussions. It doesn’t take away the human element of having a conversation, of having the critical thinking of making the decision.

but it is being used as an input into a decision-making tool. Using AI to be a critiquer of work that has been written, it to be, using it to sort of pick holes in a thought process, in a project plan. A whole lot of inventive ways that they are using prompts to ⁓ get the quality of the work, the decisions they’re making better. So definitely,

boosting productivity, one, guess, quality of decision making, but two, them being able to go into these organizations because of their curiosity, because of their exploration of it, to accelerate kind of the digital transformation journey. Are they the tech people implementing new technology? No, but what organizations are needing are leaders who can be digitally savvy, who can help drive, you know, different ⁓ behaviors and experimentation and so forth.

To answer your last question there around this disconnect between 90 % of the executives saying that they’re using AI, but then in organizations, about 3 % only adopting. I think where we are, my observation is, is individuals experimenting and building their own AI proficiency with tools. And that’s kind of happening at work, at home. What organizations are trying to grapple with is

⁓ how do they then harness this practising, this efficiency that’s being created for good. So where are the productivity gains potentially that the organisation are benefiting from people doing this? Where’s the innovation, the new ideas, the creativity supposedly that’s supposed to be coming from the spare time that we have? I think that is where the grapple is and I think that’s the disconnect. So I think we’ll probably see over the next 12 months.

you know, leaders who are more digitally savvy being at the table to help organizations harness now what individuals are doing individually to experiment, you know, improve decision-making, improve productivity, but how now we can scale that out across the organization. And what does that look like? I mean, this is ⁓ kind of new territory, I think, for most organizations and leaders.

Renata Bernarde (48:52)
Yeah, that’s a great conversation. I’m just thinking of a new episode just about that. Because, we are, you know, this generation that we’re going through this amazing rapid change, everything changes so much all the time. But what we haven’t been able to do is the optimization of our systems and the way that we work and ⁓ understanding that.

Donna Burr (48:58)
Yeah, yes.

Renata Bernarde (49:19)
⁓ I’m thinking about hybrid work as well and the fact that there has been so much pushback on hybrid work, whereas there’s just a lot of benefits as well that people just are not seeing yet. I don’t think that there is a way back from hybrid work or remote work. think that we are now just the pushback is ⁓ just old fashioned thinking that needs to be ⁓ updated.

Donna Burr (49:32)
Yes.

Renata Bernarde (49:48)
and AI and optimization of systems and structures with machine learning, with ⁓ technology is what we need to think about as well for our future. It will be ⁓ way better for corporate professionals when we do ⁓ think of it as ⁓ enhancing rather than taking away. ⁓

Donna Burr (50:14)
Yeah,

it’s probably the thing. Of course it does have its risks and to the risks part, it’s probably the, if I look forward the next 15 years, is probably, AI is probably the thing that excites me the most about the opportunity that we have individually, but also in organizations and as a society is probably the thing that scares me the most because there are so many unknowns.

Renata Bernarde (50:16)
Not to say that it doesn’t have its risks, Donna, but I know it does.

Yes, yes, I can.

Donna Burr (50:43)
But to your point, it’s here, think the rate and pace of change will only be limited by us humans. I think the technology is there, it’s how quickly we can adopt and adapt and choose to. ⁓ And we’re always dealing with human emotions and ⁓ fears and hopes as we’re doing this. it’s, know, buckle in, say, I think it’ll be an interesting ride.

Renata Bernarde (51:11)
Donna, I love doing episodes about interim executive management with you, with your colleagues at Watermark. I have done it with international interim executive recruiters as well from the US. And I love it because it just helps me so much with my coaching. You know, I just need to send a playlist whenever a client says, ⁓ I’m interested in this.

And I say, okay, before we even talk about it, just listen to this episode with Donna, this one and that one. But the reason why I have to do it and you will relate to this, I’m sure, is that a lot of people leap into interim executive work, not knowing what it is. if you could leave ⁓ the listeners with one piece of a demise before they make… ⁓

Donna Burr (51:52)
Yes.

Renata Bernarde (52:04)
the change to interim executive or contact you about it, what would you say to them that can help them make that decision?

Donna Burr (52:06)
Yeah.

Yeah, you know, probably a couple of things, maybe two things. think one is, you know, be curious. think, you know, investigate, find out information. One, always ⁓ speak to you, you know, speak to us, read up about it. There is information there. We’ve got a lot of thought leadership on the topic. So be curious, be interested. ⁓ Secondly, be intentional. I really come back to why and when we…

Renata Bernarde (52:15)
Okay.

Donna Burr (52:41)
you know, that sort of ask why five times to get to the real root reason why someone is running away from or towards something. Often I find people are running away from something that they haven’t enjoyed and it was hard and feel that potentially this will be easier or different. I who wouldn’t want to work for six or seven months of the year and do some of their side hustles and travel, but it doesn’t just happen. It requires self agency and intention and planning to make that happen. So.

⁓ I think be curious and find out information, really be intentional. So question your why and be informed to just sort of making that decision. Get the right mentors and support around you to sort of help you with those decisions.

Renata Bernarde (53:24)
Awesome. Donna, thank you so much. I will put a link to the report in the show notes that people can go read it. It’s a great read and it’s been wonderful talking to you.

Donna Burr (53:26)

Thank you for having me here. I love our partnership and ⁓ always fun to come and spend some time chatting with you. And obviously this time sharing our survey in the 15th year of data. So thank you.