Episode 312 - If you second-guess your success, Alison Shamir shares the mindset shifts and tools that help professionals recognise and overcome imposter thoughts.

Renata Bernarde (00:00)
Today I am joined by Alison Shamir an international speaker, author and consultant. Alison’s background in corporate is impressive. She is a confident speaker. She comes across with an excellent tone of voice. She’s steady. Her arguments and explanations are so robust. She’s a true expert and masterfully explains and educates her audience. So it’s really surprising.

that her actual expertise, which is imposter syndrome, comes from her personal experience. Alison is in fact a leading voice on imposter syndrome, having written a book about it and worked with several global brands and audiences in more than 24 countries, helping people understand and overcome the hidden ways that self-doubt shows up at work.

In our conversation, we focus on how imposter syndrome affects corporate professionals in their job search, job interviews and career progression. If you’ve ever felt like you weren’t good enough despite clear evidence of your achievements, this episode will really resonate with you.

Before we continue, a reminder that working with a coach can help you achieve your goals faster. So please check out my website and see all the different forms that you can invest in yourself and in your career. If you’re listening to this episode, I am very confident that I designed my services and courses for professionals just like you. Okay, let’s dive into it.

Renata Bernarde (02:02)
This is a very casual chat and I’m gonna ask you lots of questions that I’m curious about and my listeners are just like flies on the wall ⁓ of our conversation. I found you on LinkedIn, by the way, and I’ve been following you since then. And the topic that you wrote about in your book is one that troubles a lot of my clients and I’m sure a lot of my listeners as well.

And I want to know when did it start troubling you? ⁓

Alison Shamir (02:34)
So I have a very personal journey with imposter syndrome and it’s my own journey that actually led me to be doing the work I’m doing today. So in my previous life, as I like to call it, I spent 16 years working in the corporate sector. And for the majority of that time, I was working in technology and I held multiple leadership roles during that time.

My first one being at 24 years old. So I stepped into leadership very, very young. And my first incident of imposter syndrome was when I was 21. So I spent about 10 years in my previous career experiencing imposter syndrome. And then in 2013, I had a very debilitating episode of it.

and it caused me to have a very significant panic attack in my office in Sydney. And it was that day, and I do write about this a little bit in the earliest chapters of my book, in particular in chapter one. ⁓ And it was that day at the end of 2013 that really changed the course of my life because I spent the next 12 months understanding, navigating and overcoming my own imposter syndrome.

And that really spurred on this obsession, as I like to call it with imposter syndrome. And then fast forward to today, and it’s now my expertise and I work with it all around the world. So for everyone listening to this, you I like to say I broke up with imposter syndrome in 2014, but I suffered with imposter syndrome for 10 years. So I’m on a professional mission, but it’s very personal.

for me as well. And I understand both sides of the imposter coin. And of course that allows me to be, you know, very productive ⁓ and to give the empathy that the clients need ⁓ when I’m working with them on their own imposter syndrome.

Renata Bernarde (04:41)
At those early days of imposter syndrome that you experienced, were you able to hide it or were you sharing with others and you felt that others also experienced it?

Alison Shamir (04:52)
That’s a great question. I hid it exceptionally well. In fact, Right up until the day that I had that severe panic attack in my office, nobody knew I was experiencing imposter syndrome. And in fact, nobody knew because I didn’t know myself. It wasn’t until I had that debilitating episode, had to take myself home from work later that day that

I essentially went on the hunt to figure out what was wrong with me. So I only heard of imposter syndrome for the first time at the end of 2013. And once I started reading about it, I knew immediately that, aha, know, this is what’s going on with me. And that was a really big revelation at the time because I was very fearful that I didn’t know what was happening to me because just to set the scene quickly.

I was in a leadership role of an international technology company. I was 30 years old. I was earning great money. I was being flown all around the world. And if you think of the corporate dream, you know, all the tick box, I had ticked all of those boxes. So everything on paper looked good, was good, et cetera. But on the inside, I was suffering from this at the time, debilitating experience. And I just didn’t have a name for it.

So back to your question, your great question, I hid it very well. Every time I had that voice in my head saying, you’re a fake, you’re a fraud, it’s only a matter of time before they find out they shouldn’t have hired you to lead this team. Who were you to be in this room? Why would anyone want to listen to your voice? And these are some of the imposter stories I used to tell myself. I had no idea at the time what was driving those stories.

And a lot of us with imposter syndrome, in fact, most of us mask the symptoms because it makes us feel like an intellectual fake, phony or fraud in our own lives or careers. There’s a lot of shame associated with that. Shame is one of the biggest emotional reactions tied to imposter syndrome. And for anyone listening to this, if you have ever felt shame in any way, you’ll all know that the biggest thing shame often does is silence as us.

We back away, we don’t talk about it. And that’s why so many individuals who experience imposter syndrome suffer in silence for, if not the whole time, most of the time. So no, I didn’t speak to anyone about it, even though I didn’t know what it was. I was too frightened to tell my boss or my colleagues, hey, I feel like I shouldn’t be leading you in this team. Like I feel like I’m gonna look like a fool in this meeting.

I didn’t want them to know. So I masked it. And for those of you who might’ve read about imposter syndrome, masking and masking of behaviors, and I can explain that if you like later in this conversation, is very big. So we present and perform and we look like we have it all together because we do have it all together, but we’re suffering this experience on the inside. And that was my journey. And of course, in this conversation, I can share with you how it…

impact some other people but ⁓ that’s what the experience looked like for me and I was very alone. It’s very isolating and I’m sure many listening to this will be able to relate to that.

Renata Bernarde (08:21)
Yes, ⁓ as you were talking about shame, I was just thinking about an article that I was reading yesterday about people that fear the cringe, you know, and going up this article is relating to the cringe mountain. You have to go up the cringe mountain to be cool. I almost like, and it’s really interesting because the analysis of

Alison Shamir (08:45)
Thank you.

Renata Bernarde (08:51)
cringe and shame. Shame is what you feel. Cringe is what you believe people will feel when they look at you crying. And that whole embarrassment is what makes the imposter syndrome so much harder to deal with, isn’t it? It’s like this internal turmoil where you want to present yourself as ready when in fact culturally we should accept being caught out trying and being, you know, able to…

fail at times and learn from it, but as somebody who also experienced imposter syndrome, we almost don’t want to go through those phases. We want to just be ready. Is that how it feels to go through imposter syndrome?

Alison Shamir (09:34)
Yes,

it’s some very good things that you brought up there. So imposter syndrome, if an individual is experiencing imposter syndrome. So it’s important for me to note that not every person experiences imposter syndrome. So global data still tells us that around 70 % of individuals will experience imposter syndrome in their lifetime, whether it’s in their career, their personal life or both, because it can cross over into both. So it’s majority of us.

And then, know, what you’re saying there, if we are experiencing imposter syndrome, we already are fearful, we’re already feeling some shame because we’re going through our day believing that we are fooling everyone. We believe that we are not competent enough, capable enough, intelligent enough, qualified enough to be in the room or to go for the role or to be on the job hunt or to take the promotion or to shift careers.

and do something different, but we are qualified, we are capable, we’re just not internalizing the evidence of our success. And therefore, when opportunities come up or we find ourselves in spaces, we can already feel a level of embarrassment and shame because again, in quote, we feel like we’re fooling everyone. Okay, so it’s not real, but it feels like a very real experience. So then yes.

bring that into when we have to climb the ladder or we have to step into different positions. And with that can come different elements of fear of embarrassment or fear of exposure, which is also tied to imposter syndrome. And essentially it just becomes a ⁓ simmering fire to your point. And all of these things come together. And what happens is that we self-sabotage. So we hold ourselves back in some way. We either don’t put our hand up for the opportunity

don’t go on the job hunt or submit the application for the wonderful role that we do tick, you know, most of the boxes on, we start to actually sabotage ourselves because why do we sabotage ourselves? Because we believe at the time we’re protecting ourselves. It’s like a coping mechanism. We believe and say, well, if I, know, so you’re not saying to yourself, I’m sabotaging myself, but you’re saying to yourself, well, I just won’t apply for this role. And if I don’t apply, I can’t be rejected.

or judged or these sorts of things and that will protect me. But what it’s actually doing is costing you an opportunity that you have earned the right to go for or that you are certainly qualified or competent for. And so it becomes this cycle, this vicious cycle of sabotage. And then somewhere in that you, the individual, regardless of how you gender identify, are trying to find yourself, are trying to centre yourself.

And it becomes this cognitive dissonance imposter syndrome where how the world is perceiving us and everyone around us is perceiving us because they’re looking at the evidence. They’re seeing you for who you are, but you are temporarily blocked from seeing the truth about yourself when you have imposter syndrome, which is why it’s very important to understand it and navigate through it as quickly, when say as quickly as possible. You know, it can take weeks, it can take months, et cetera.

because the longer we sit in imposter syndrome, the more embedded the behaviors become and the more skewed our perception of ourselves becomes. Now it doesn’t mean it’s impossible to unpack it, but it is a little bit more difficult because we have sat in it for longer and it’s no different than any other habitual pattern. You know, it’s like hypothetically, if we want to return to exercise and we haven’t done it in 12 months, it’s a little bit more difficult than if we had had just two weeks off.

you know, attending the gym. I know that might seem like a basic analogy, but it’s very similar with the behavioral changes required. So, you know, I agree with what you’ve said. And that’s where, you know, the example that you gave, and if imposter syndrome is in the driver’s seat, we just get all of these layers clashing. And it’s a real challenge for the individual. It feels like an insurmountable mountain to climb. Or in my book, Conquer Your Imposter, I describe it

as a shadow. Poster syndrome becomes this shadow that no matter where you go, it just follows you. You can go up, you can go down, you can go sideways, you can have time out of work, and it just follows you. Right? It doesn’t go away on its own, unfortunately, that would be amazing if it did. It just follows you. So that’s why we need to understand it.

Renata Bernarde (14:09)
I wonder, Alison, if managers can spot imposter syndrome in their employees, in the job candidates, and instead of penalizing them, supporting them, I have seen time and time again managers… ⁓

tap people on the shoulder and say, you should apply for this promotion. And then the person thinks, you know, I’m not ready yet. ⁓ And frankly, usually women would, I mean, anecdotally, that’s my experience as a coach, that they would opt out ⁓ thinking that the job in…

entails that’s the excuse they give more responsibilities more time more commitment than what they have right now whereas in my view you know once you are in the corporate world the commitment is basically you know the same at the middle management level and the senior level that was my personal experience as well so i’m thinking here if we can even if that’s something that you do train companies and managers to spot the imposter syndrome occurring and then

help the individual overcome it.

Alison Shamir (15:21)
Yes, I I do do a lot of that work, you know, to answer the latter part of your question and the former part of it, you know, what can we do? Can managers, know, or hiring managers or leaders spot it in other people? And you absolutely can if you know what you’re looking for, of course, but some of the things.

to look for is, well, you just gave a great example. So if you are presenting someone with a role or suggesting with a promotion or advancement or whatever it may be, and you’re going to them and you’re believing that they’ve earned it or they’re deserving or that they’re a great fear and they are.

talking themselves down if they are saying, no, I’m not ready or I’m not qualified, then just gently leaning in, you know, in a psychologically safe way. So that means one on one. I never suggest these conversations in a group format, no matter how safe a team may be. Conversations around imposter syndrome or fear based behaviors should always be done one on one first. So create that space for the individual.

and ask them questions. So I find you’re probably the same, know, ⁓ Renata, in your work is that questions are very powerful. Questions allow us to disarm a person, make them feel safe. And of course then we can be an active listener. And we learn so much more by listening than talking, which I’m sure, you know, a lot of us know or have heard. So create that space. And then if they are refusing the role in whatever way, staying on this example,

Just say to them, know, that’s really interesting, because I believe you’re a great fit. know, tell me a little bit more about why you think this is not for you, and then stop talking, right? Let them explain it. Now, if they continue down a path where they’re very self-deprecating, they’re constantly talking themselves out of the role, again, draw them into the conversation, give them praise, share with them all of the evidence of why you believe that they deserve this role, and encourage them the best you can.

And something I want to be very clear on when it comes to helping them through imposter syndrome, positive reinforcement is not enough. It needs to be evidence-based. So what do I mean by that? You say to them, know, Renata, I believe you’re, you know, you’re so suitable for this role because you have just completed X or you have just done Y or in the last six months, you have demonstrated stepping up and using your voice and achieving X.

And this is why I think that’s a good launch pad for you. So we must connect the talk back to evidence. When someone’s experiencing imposter syndrome, remember that they, although they’ve got the credentials, the talent, you know, they’re amazing, they tick the boxes, remember that they don’t believe that. That’s not how they’re seeing themselves. So if you come along to someone with imposter syndrome and you say, Renata, you’re brilliant. Stop it. You you deserve this role. You’re amazing. Get in there. I support you.

Although that’s lovely dialogue, that doesn’t help someone with imposter syndrome because we’re far more down in the weeds of self-deprecation. So connect it back with evidence, I believe asking questions, creating psychological safety one-on-one and give the encouragement connected back to evidence. And then that’s on that particular example, that’s all you can do because it is that analogy of you can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make it drink. It is the same concept here with imposter syndrome.

Renata Bernarde (18:31)
Thank you.

Alison Shamir (18:42)
You can do these aspects, but the individual themselves must also be ready to say, yes, I want to combat this. I do want to push through this fear that I’m holding. So that’s just one example. Just a couple of quick ones, because I think this is such a powerful question, is that one of the biggest telltale signs, and I’ve touched on it a little bit there with imposter syndrome, is the language we use to ourselves about ourselves, right? So what I mean by that is,

Imposter language is very self-deprecating and it’s very identity level and self-worth attacking. So what do I mean by that? Someone with imposter syndrome is likely to make a lot of I-based statements. I don’t deserve this role, right? Who am I to consider taking that promotion or stepping up? Why would anyone want to listen to me if I move into that new team? Why would this hiring manager even consider?

my application if I send it through. So if you can hear in that language is very I, I very self-deprecating and at that identity level, I’m attacking me first before I get to what I do. just pay attention everyone, if you’re wanting to know, okay, someone experiencing imposter syndrome, pay attention to the language they’re using about themselves to themselves. It does become very obvious.

You might all be listening to this saying, gosh, there’s someone who sits in my team meeting who’s doing this or my sister-in-law does this or et cetera, et cetera. So that’s a telltale sign. And you said it beautifully before is remind them that no matter how good we all are, and even myself at an expert level, I’m still learning and growing every day. My expertise didn’t end a few years ago. So encourage and share that we’re all on a growth trajectory.

There is always something new to learn and a new growth path if you wish to pursue it. And we need to continue to give ourselves permission to learn and grow. So what does that mean in going for a new role or promotion context is that nobody has it all figured out. Nobody has all of the answers. Nobody ticks all of the boxes. And it’s just a reminder of that and saying, you have enough.

here’s your level of competence now and it got you in this room or it got you in the hunt for this role or it got you in the second or third interview or whatever it may be. And yes, nobody has this, you the magic wand of knowing all of the answers, but how can you present and perform at your best based on the evidence that you can present in this next step? So it’s always back to this evidence. Why? Because imposter syndrome has us ignoring the evidence.

Renata Bernarde (21:16)
it.

Alison Shamir (21:29)
So you’re gonna hear me say this word a lot because imposter syndrome only impacts individuals who have evidence of competence and success. So people who are genuinely imposters, people who are BSing their way through the corporate world, and we all know that person, imposter syndrome doesn’t impact those people. Unfortunately, imposter syndrome is reserved for the creditable, competent,

capable and those who have evidence of success and ⁓ evidence to prove that they belong in the room. So there’s some examples that I will give and it’s around these behaviors but led by the way that people talk to themselves about themselves, telltale sign of if somebody is stuck in imposter territory.

Renata Bernarde (22:04)
Yeah.

That’s so interesting what you just said. I’m fascinated by all of this. For those listening, I wanted to share with you, Alison, some of the proxies that I have used in the past to identify if a potential client who has booked a consultation with me struggles with imposter syndrome or not. So when I’m looking at their resumes or their profiles or the information that they sent,

to me ahead of our session, when I see lots of formal education pursuits, so if they’ve done lots of masters, you know, they have two, three masters that they have done. The other thing that I also ⁓ look out for is when they say, ⁓ you know, I’ve been told I should apply for this role. I will apply because even if I don’t get it, it’s a good experience for me.

And that tells me everything about the fact that the person is being perceived externally by their peers or by a mentor or by a manager as ready for the opportunity, but the person themselves don’t see themselves as ready. And then also when they come to me and they are, let’s say, already operating at the chief financial officer level,

but they are applying for a financial manager role or financial controller role. Just as an example, like they are level below when they go to a job to apply for a job. And I’m like, but why, you know, it’s okay not to aim higher or not to aim at your level, but why are you demoting yourself in your job search? Right. So those are examples that tell me very quickly that I need to deal with imposter syndrome with that.

Can you think of any others in that sort of job search pursuit and career advancement?

Alison Shamir (24:19)
Well, first I think they’re brilliant. they’re fantastic. And I know I would wholeheartedly be doing the same. And I think you’re right. They’re such good litmus tests for it’s highly likely imposter syndrome could be present. And it just made me think of something just quickly on that is when you mentioned around, that example of somebody demoting themselves or essentially going down a level, et cetera. That’s a really important one because something I wanted to share here with all of you is that imposter syndrome

can cause individuals to move jobs. And the reason for that is, is because they get to a certain level, you know, at work and the imposter syndrome is firing in them and they’re like, my goodness, it’s only a matter of time before I get exposed or they find me out. And now that I’m in this role, I have to deal with more leadership or more stakeholders. And therefore there’s higher chance of somebody figuring out I don’t belong here. Again, none of that’s true, but that’s just the imposter story running through our head. So what happens? They resign.

and they move companies because they tell themselves if I move companies, no one in the new company will know I’m really an imposter, I don’t belong here. And then I’ll get another two or three year runway. And then if people start to figure it out, then I’ll move again. So just something I wanted to share that we also see with with imposter syndrome. Now, that doesn’t mean that people who move jobs every two years all have imposter syndrome to be clear. But that’s just another example of well telltale signs, but linking in with what you said about, you know, gosh, you’re

Again, going down a level or sideways, that’s okay, but explain to me why, which I think is brilliant. And look, I don’t really have much to add on top of those. I think as I said, they’re excellent. The only final one I would say is if you get to a point, yes, where you’re questioning them or you’re in an interview phase or some form of screening, again, just tapping on what I said earlier is listening to the language that they use toward themselves, about themselves. So if it starts getting…

very self-deprecating and if they continue to distance themselves from their success, know, so if you say to them, gosh, you’ve achieved, you know, to your point, whether it’s all the masters or credentials or it’s just a level of success in the role, and you say to them, you know, gosh, you’ve achieved a lot here, you can you share with me a little bit more about how you did that with the team or how you led them to those results? If they then back away from their success, so discounting.

success, even when it’s asked of them and deflecting praise and compliments is another big one. So if every time you share something or every time you are using evidence, but it’s giving them a compliment or it’s asking them to speak about great information, if they deflect, if they step back or if they use self-deprecating language about themselves, you know, talking themselves down, again, just another sort of buffer over the top, you know, and that real hesitation.

I think had telltale signs. But outside of that, I love the three, you know, the three sort of levels that you have there. And I’m sure they would be very accurate.

Renata Bernarde (27:17)
Thank you. ⁓ Alison, does it ever go away or is it something we need to learn? I’m very curious to know if you still have imposter syndrome from time to time and it’s just something that you then know how to manage it rather than you’ve overcome it and you don’t feel it anymore.

Alison Shamir (27:24)
million dollar question.

Yes. look, it’s a great question, actually one I love talking about. And the whole reason in my work as well, like my book is titled, Conquer Your Impostor. I do a lot of work around, you conquering imposter syndrome, fear and doubt. And the word conquer, you know, is an important word for me, but essentially, you know, conquer means control, you know, to take control of. And as human beings, when we are in control of the controllables,

That’s of course a better scenario. We all know we can’t control everything in life. We all know, especially business, et cetera, there are some levers outside of our control, but we can control far more than we realize. And imposter syndrome is something that can be controlled and it is also something that can be eliminated. And I’ll give you two quick examples. But again, I use this word around control because if you are in control, and I’ll start on this side, I’ll start on the individuals and my clients who get control of their imposter syndrome.

What does that mean? It means that they are able to, and I have a three pillar framework that’s outlined in my book and it is the core of one of my coaching frameworks. So I have three proprietary frameworks that I move clients through for imposter syndrome. ⁓ Two of them are, and the main ones are highlighted in my book as well. But the core framework has three steps, identify, intercept, redirect, and then each of those steps has three components. So there are nine stages.

understanding, navigating and overcoming imposter syndrome. And so for the clients of mine who can take control of it and who come through my programs, they’re able to identify the triggering circumstance that brings about their imposter syndrome quickly. Right, they’re able to intercept the negative story they’re telling themselves, which is controlling everything that they do next. And they’re able to redirect the key self sabotaging behavior.

that is keeping them stuck in what we call an imposter cycle. They’re able to redirect that behavior to what I call a new evidence-based behavior which propels them forward. And that’s just sort of the top level. Now, when they take control of it, back to your question, they’re able to do those three steps within a minute, sometimes within a matter of a few seconds. So it means that they attribute a little imposter moment comes up, they feel the story starting to take over and they’re able to say to themselves, no.

I need to run an intercept here. Why am I experiencing this? What has happened in the environment? I need to switch this story very quickly before I fall back into the trap of my perfectionism or my toxic comparison or excessive negative self-talk or rumination, which is a fancy name for overthinking. These are just some examples of self-sabotaging behaviors tied to imposter syndrome. So they’re able to run that intercept. They’re able to change the behavior, which allows them to emotionally regulate.

and not let the heavy emotional reactions like shame, embarrassment, and other significant ⁓ fear-based responses take over. Now, when they can do that, that means that they can reset themselves again in a matter of minutes. And that is a significant change because that is the difference to being able to present and perform in what I call a responsive state as opposed to a reactive state.

Imposter syndrome makes you reactive. It makes you fearful. It makes you second guess yourself all the time in those moments when the imposter experience is triggered. So they gain control. They’re able to go from spiraling out of control with behaviors for days, weeks or months to down to a fine art of a few minutes or a few hours of being able to reset. So that is super powerful, as you can imagine, because that can be the difference between, let’s say,

Renata Bernarde (31:15)
That’s all.

Alison Shamir (31:20)
speaking with you or going through a job hunting exercise and the imposter syndrome sort of starts to kick in and then they’re like, no, I deserve to be here. I’ve applied for this role for this reason. I’m about to be in this conversation with Renata or someone else. I need to reset so I can put my best foot forward because I want this opportunity. So that’s how they can pivot the language and the behavior and get out of imposter syndrome being in the driver’s seat. So that’s one part. That’s what I teach people to do is take control.

But on the second side, can you eliminate imposter syndrome entirely? Yes, you can. And what’s the difference between those two people? Their own experiences. How long they’ve been experiencing imposter syndrome, how extensive or prominent it’s been in their life, how frequently it has shown up for them based on their occupation or whatever else is going on in their life. So it depends on those factors.

So for me, I’ll just start with myself as a case study, but I’ll give you two other quick client examples. I was able to work through my imposter syndrome between the end of 2013 and pretty much all of 2014 with progression each month throughout that year. And I no longer experience imposter syndrome anymore. So I left it in 2014. It has never come back. It has never, never come back for me.

So do I experience moments of fear and self doubt? Yes, I do, because we all do. Every human being on the planet, and this is something for the listeners, this is super key, is that we all experience self doubt, every human being. We all have fears. All of us fear something. I still have fears, of course we all do. But only 70 % of us experience imposter syndrome, which is falling into that space of believing we’re an intellectual fake, phony or fraud on the verge of being exposed or found out despite

evidence of success and competence. So a reminder that imposter syndrome can only exist when you have the evidence of your competence and success, but you are ignoring it. Anything outside of that falls into self-doubt, standalone self-doubt, or perhaps another fear, such as what you said earlier, that somebody might have a fear of looking cringy or a fear of looking very silly on the way up. Now that can be a standalone fear not connected to imposter syndrome at all.

Somebody can have a fear of rejection, which I think is a common one, but it not be tied to imposter syndrome. It can be, but not always. Somebody can have a fear, and I’m sure you see this a lot of public speaking or presenting in it or starting a podcast, you know, but it may not be tied to imposter syndrome. It’s tied to something else. So just some examples that I want to give you. So can you eliminate it entirely? Yes. And I have some other client examples. I work with a wonderful medical doctor.

Olivia, who’s conquered her own imposter syndrome and gone on to write books, speak on stages and do a whole gamut of other things on top of her phenomenal medical career because she was able to take control and eliminate her imposter syndrome, you know, and she’s doing great things. I have a client, Sean, who was a very senior marketing director who, you know, described my coaching program as life-changing because so did Dr. Olivia, who I mentioned first because

They were able to come through the program. They were able to understand it, get on top of it and eliminate it out of their day to day. So it absolutely can happen. And my goal firstly is to get people in control of imposter syndrome. And I’m sure you can all understand why, because controlling the controllables is powerful. Then if we can get them to a point of elimination, wonderful.

And I know going through the programs or when I’m working with individuals because they tell me their backstories. Obviously I’m learning about their past. I’m learning about the prevalence or frequency of imposter syndrome, but also what the triggers are. So something quickly I want to share with you is that a trigger for imposter syndrome, and I write about these extensively in my book, but also in my work. So for anyone listening, LinkedIn articles, I post a lot of free content. So please don’t feel that anybody’s got to buy my book to get,

some detail from me, I put a lot of free writing out there. But imposter triggers, just something I wanna touch on quickly and would love your perspective on this Renata, the triggers of the environmental factors make the imposter experience come up. So for example, job hunting, stepping into the new role, walking into an interview, your first day in the new role, you’ve secured it, but then you walk in and you’re addressed by your team, you’re like,

Renata Bernarde (35:45)
Okay.

Alison Shamir (36:01)
you know, now they’re all going to finally find out. So it can show up at different times, right? You could be wanting to do a little side project and it’s showing up there. So it’s important that you understand the trigger and the trigger will change as you grow and scale and, you know, become diverse in your career, triggers may change, but it’s important that if you are triggered in this experience, you stop for a second and say, okay, I’m having this imposter moment, what caused it?

Was it the conversation with the person? Was it the interview or the job hunt? Was it day one of the new role? It’s very important that we have absolute clarity on the trigger. Now why, based on where I was going with this, is that if the trigger is somebody who is in your presence regularly, your boss, your colleague, your husband, wife, or partner, and this has happened, and you…

cannot avoid these people, you literally can say, I never want to see you again, right? Then you’re going to be around the very thing that’s bringing about this experience all the time. And that is a harder challenge, not impossible, but we need to be aware of that. I need to say, okay, how do we deal with this given it’s very frequent and very prevalent, verse ⁓ an imposter trigger being, I’m on the hunt for a new job. Okay, that’s there. But then perhaps when they secure the role,

and they find their feet in the new role. And if the role is a psychologically safe environment, the imposter experience may dissipate, right? Even if it’s there a little bit, it may come down. So just a couple of quick examples, I wanted to give you that the differentiation in control versus elimination is the level of trigger and the frequency of the imposter experience. And then in the middle of that is you, the wonderful individual, and we can navigate your path through that. So it’s important.

that we do not put ourselves in a box when it comes to imposter syndrome because how I, so let me reframe that. The definition of imposter syndrome is the same for all of us, but we are all unique. None of us are the same. You and I not the same. So how I experienced my imposter syndrome based on my background, my career, my trajectory, my age, my industry, et cetera, could be very different to how you have, right? Or there might be some similarities.

But I say this now because what I find is often when individuals are start talking about their imposter syndrome or start sharing, which I encourage, they then hear other stories and they go, ⁓ gosh, my story is a bit different to that or gosh, it’s showing up more frequently for me. And we actually start, and it’s funny, not funny, but we start to compare our imposter syndrome and then we don’t want to be doing that either. We want to be going, okay, what is my journey?

What does this mean for me based on what Alison has shared or Renata has shared? What does this mean for me? And how do I carve my path using the tools and the elements available to me, but how do they fit into my life, my career, my day to day? So I know that was a of longer answer, but I think, and I know people can go back and rewind ⁓ podcasts, because I just want to make sure I get as much sort of value in here for all of you listening. So you can take something away from this chat.

and implement it right away, but understand the context of the how and the why.

Renata Bernarde (39:23)
I love that and I think that it will resonate with a lot of listeners because you’re absolutely right when we’re going through layoffs and redundancies and know job sales and and

Alison Shamir (39:33)
Absolutely. Yeah.

Renata Bernarde (39:37)
starting a new job, these are all triggers as you said and ⁓ as soon as you overcome one there’s another one, there’s another one because the job search journey is very triggering from the moment you decide to leave, you’re pushed out or something happened to the moment you start job hunting to the moment you start a new job.

People think that the problem will be over when you get a new job. That’s not true. A new job can be just as stressful and just as triggering because all of a sudden you have gone from being somebody who knew everything about the previous workplace.

to now knowing absolutely nothing, no one’s names, nothing. And you feel very out of the loop and that can trigger, I’m assuming the imposter syndrome as you said, ⁓ depending on your personality and if you have more of a propensity to it, which is very common. And I go through that journey because job searching is my expertise. So I see that happening a lot. ⁓ I think you asked for my perspective

I think my, I see as part of my purpose and the work that I do is to ⁓ bring knowledge to people. So that’s why you’re here today. knowledge means understanding that in order to succeed, people have failed. In order to overcome, people have gone through the trenches.

Alison Shamir (41:05)
Mm.

Renata Bernarde (41:06)
You know, and I don’t think that we see that, especially in that lonely space of job searching, when you are very much by yourself at home applying for it and you don’t see. All you see is when somebody announces on LinkedIn they got a new job. You know, you see the struggle that the person have gone through for months sometimes or even longer to get that job. So we…

Alison Shamir (41:24)
Yes.

Renata Bernarde (41:36)
Bring in the knowledge, you know, if you want to start a business, you know, don’t romanticize it. If you want a new job, don’t romanticize it. Understand what you need to go through and what the things that you’re going to overcome will be. And even when I know, I still feel them. So I’ll give you an example.

In my past, used to be long, long time ago, another century ago, I used to be a travel agent specialized in long term stays. So I was an educational agent, I represented lots of universities, I used to help people migrate and so forth. And there’s something called a cultural shock that usually happens around the third month of when you move overseas. And I knew that, I used to educate my clients to

Alison Shamir (42:02)
Ha

Renata Bernarde (42:26)
know about this, especially because three months into a new degree overseas is when you start getting exams. So it’s the worst time to actually be ⁓ low in adrenaline and sort of all of a sudden realizing you have no friends, you’re in a different country, it’s really hard to speak that second language, yada yada. Even though I knew it, Alison, I moved to Australia and

Guess what? Three months in, I was crying, I was a mess, right? It happened to me. So as long as you know that that can happen, as long as you know that you may experience imposter syndrome, you’re not romanticizing the journey and you’re finding ways, know, buying your book, working with you, working with me, identifying ways to educate yourself and learn how to overcome it.

Alison Shamir (43:20)
Yes, Ogre, and firstly, thank you for sharing that. Where is your accent from, Renata? Yes, sorry, you did tell me that. Yes, I think when we first exchanged, that’s right. And thank you for sharing that story. Again, yeah, very, very relatable. And I think we can take also that, those examples and contextually they can fit into, like when we’re entering the new role and we go, you talk about that three month window. And I was just thinking to myself that in my own corporate career, ⁓

Renata Bernarde (43:24)
I’m from Brazil originally.

Alison Shamir (43:47)
with imposter syndrome, imposter syndrome, my imposter syndrome through that decade, it didn’t stop me from putting my hand up for the new role or taking the promotion. But funny enough with what you just said, what would happen with me is I would start in the role and the first couple of months, you know, they’re all good tick, tick, tick. It’s of course all normal per se because I’d earned the right to do it. And I would get a couple of months in and then it would hit me. And I would say,

okay, I’ve, this is what I’d say to myself, of course, this was the imposter syndrome talking and say, okay, you’ve had a couple of months runway here, it’s only a matter of time before, you know, they figure out that they’ve hired the wrong person, you know, the rose coloured glasses are going to come off and they’re going to realise. And so that just made me think of that. So thank you for sharing your story, because yes, highly relatable, and I think can be put into into different contexts. And you’re right in another example of how

triggering moments can come up and you’ve highlighted a good point that they don’t always happen immediately. So there can be ⁓ a delayed impact for whatever reason. And you also touched on something important as well. I wanted to add around a redundancy or ⁓ your role ending through no fault of your own. But when that happens and especially when we don’t see it coming, and let’s face it, we all know that most redundancies, you don’t see it coming.

they really don’t announce it. Some organizations or industries, might hear some murmurs in the media, but it’s rare. Often you’re blindsided just for, you know, and that can be a huge hit to one’s confidence, which is what I wanted to say. So yes, imposter syndrome can happen, but just outside of that, we can have these hits on confidence, hits on self-esteem and other things. And then when they come into the mix again, it can just feel so isolating and insurmountable.

Renata Bernarde (45:32)
Thank

Alison Shamir (45:32)
And then if we

are hunting for a job, to your point, we might get a few rejections or no’s or whatever work. And then you’re right. It’s about being able to reset for that, being able to go, no, okay, I know why I’m in this. Okay, I didn’t get that one, but how do I reset? So yes, there can be many things at that transitional time going on that have us questioning ourselves when really, and this is what imposter syndrome does, it makes us question ourselves. It makes us self blame. But what we actually need to do

is breathe and question the environment and look at the external factors, not go internal first and say, okay, well, you know, and just for conversation sake today, okay, was made redundant or we were blindsided by that, that is not my fault. That was a company decision. There’s nothing I can do about it. It was out of my control. I’m not suggesting that saying these things automatically make you feel better. You know, it doesn’t automatically lift the weight, but what it does is shift the focus.

to the reality and to the evidence of the situation. And when we do that and we’re like, this isn’t my fault, I did the best I could, they laid me off and other people or whatever, we start to externalize more, which is important, internalize less, and that will be better for our confidence and for our self-esteem and those other aspects that you know, Renata, that we need when we’re on the job hunt. Because when we’re job hunting, and I know I’m preaching to the converted here,

We have to present and perform at our best. We can’t go, and I’m not saying perfection, remember perfection is a self-sabotaging behavior, you’re not going for perfection. And in fact, job recruitment managers, companies, they don’t want perfection. They want human beings, right? But you still need to present and perform at your best in that moment with the information that you have and the preparation time that you have. And so to present and perform at our best.

We need to be feeling confident. We need to be feeling good. You do we have to be setting the world on fire? No, but we need to be able to pull it together for that hour or hour and a half or whatever the process is. And again, that brings in other elements of confidence, of self-esteem, of support, you know, of presentation, of appeal. So how do we put ourselves together so we can present and perform at our best and give the best possible first impression at that time with what you have.

And so all these other layers come in. So yes, I agree it’s important, but I guess my takeaway lesson for you all is that I encourage you to start externalizing more environmental factors. What caused this to happen? Was it within my control? Most of the time it’s not. need to remind ourselves of that and say, okay, what is within my control? And this goes across the board, not just for imposter syndrome, but we as human beings, we must come back to controlling the controllables. And that might seem cliche and a

it’s said but it is so important. It is so important to be able to sit down and make a cup of tea or coffee and say what really is within my control today. You know getting my LinkedIn profile or my CV sorted, getting my presentation sorted, doing a bit of a role play of how I might go into this session with Renata or whomever because I want to present and perform to the best of my ability today. And that’s a really powerful shift and really powerful language to anchor you.

Renata Bernarde (48:44)
Absolutely.

Alison Shamir (48:49)
in

what you can control. So that’s a big takeaway here as well is, is bring yourself back to what you can control because you would be amazed at just how much of a shift that can make for many reasons.

Renata Bernarde (49:06)
Alison, I can’t think of a better way to finish this conversation. I feel like we could talk on the water with you because every minute of this.

50 minutes we spent together has been so valuable and so incredible. Thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing your knowledge. I will make sure that there is a link in the show notes to your website, to your book so that people can learn more about you and follow you, your work and follow your LinkedIn activity as well. Thank you so much for coming on board and talking to us today. I really appreciate it.

Alison Shamir (49:44)
Thank you for having me. It’s been an absolute pleasure and thank you for everything that you do in leading the conversation around imposter syndrome as well, because more of us who are wanting to be educated with creditable evidence-based information, that’s how we’re going to help people. So a huge thank you from me to you for leading the charge and your interest in the topic and your interest in providing people with that information. So it’s been a pleasure. Thank you.

Renata Bernarde (50:11)
Thanks.