Guest: Alexa Chilcut
Executive Presence Without the Mould
Episode 329 - We unpack what interviewers are really reacting to, how to show agility at any age, and how to stay authentic while adapting to different cultures and expectations.
Guest: Carl DuPont
I understand why Brené Brown and Adam Grant can say “thumbs down” on executive presence and get a standing ovation. In their conversation on Dare to Lead, they frame executive presence as “party of one” and contrast it with leadership as a “collective capability.” It’s a compelling point, and a necessary correction for leaders who confuse charisma with competence or confuse performative confidence with real stewardship.
But in my day-to-day work as a career coach for experienced corporate professionals, executives, and senior technical specialists, executive presence is not a fad, a buzzword, or an outdated corporate relic. It is a hiring variable. It’s the most searched term on my podcast’s website. And pretending otherwise leaves job seekers at the mercy of unspoken rules.
That’s why I devoted Episode 329 of The Job Hunting Podcast to executive presence, alongside two experts who don’t treat it as a personality type or a costume: Dr. Alexa Chilcutt, executive coach and faculty lead for the Johns Hopkins Carey Business School’s Executive Education Business Communication Certificate, and Dr. Carl DuPont, Associate Professor of Voice at Johns Hopkins University’s Peabody Institute and Executive Education faculty at Carey.
What I took from our discussion is this: executive presence is real because the question isn’t whether it exists. The question is whether we teach it responsibly, in a way that helps professionals be read accurately, without forcing them into a narrow mould.
A modern definition of executive presence
Many professionals hear “executive presence” and translate it as “be impressive.” More polished. More charismatic. More extroverted. More like the leaders we’ve already seen. That is the version people are tired of. It is also the version that deserves criticism.
In our conversation, Alexa and Carl pull it back to a more useful place. Presence is the set of signals that shape trust, credibility, and confidence in the first moments, and then over time. It includes communication, yes, but also clarity, steadiness, values, and the ability to connect with people under pressure.
This is where Brown and Grant’s critique actually helps. Because executive presence shouldn’t be “ego in a tailored suit”. It should be about enabling trust, connection, and clear thinking in a group, it becomes the opposite of ego. It becomes leadership hygiene. And job seekers, like it or not, are assessed on it.
The hidden interview scorecard no one admits exists
Every senior candidate I meet has a story like this:
“I have the experience. I can do the job. The interviews go well. Then I’m told I’m not quite senior enough.”
That feedback is heartbreaking because it is rarely about capability. It is about how capability landed.
In hiring, especially at executive and leadership levels, interviewers are making a prediction. They are guessing: Will this person steady the room? Will they make good decisions in ambiguity? Will they be credible with stakeholders? Will they represent the organisation well? Will they influence without force?
Those are “presence” questions, even when nobody uses the phrase. That is why executive presence still matters, even if the term annoys people. The term may be imperfect. The underlying evaluation is constant. And in the current market, these evaluations are sharpened by three pressures that are hitting job seekers at the same time.
1: Hybrid expectations have solidified, and that changes the signals leaders must send
In Australia, hybrid patterns have stabilised, and many employers now cluster around two to three days in the office. The Australian HR Institute’s 2025 report highlights that the most common arrangement for full-time employees is three days in the workplace, with other variations like “no minimum but encouraged” also common.
This matters because presence is no longer assessed only in a boardroom. It is assessed on Zoom, on Teams, in asynchronous video updates, and in the way leaders communicate without constant physical proximity.
In the US, Robert Half’s early 2026 research describes hybrid as the top preference for many workers and points to ongoing tension between what employers mandate and what candidates want.
If your interview presence is still built for an in-person era, you are at a disadvantage. And if your on-camera setup, pacing, and clarity are sloppy, the market reads it as a lack of preparation, even if your resume says otherwise.
2: Age bias is a hiring reality, and senior candidates have to manage the signal
Ageism is not subtle when you work with professionals in their 40s, 50s, and 60s. Many clients describe the same moment: being interviewed by someone 15 to 25 years younger, and having to prove they are still relevant, still energetic, still adaptable, still “modern.”
The data backs this up. The AHRI and Australian Human Rights Commission work on older and younger workers describes persistent stereotypes and biases around age and capability, including assumptions about technology and adaptability.
Academic research also supports the reality of hiring discrimination against older applicants. A 2025 study in Social Science Research reports discrimination against older applicants that outweighs other characteristics and persists across contexts.
In our episode, Alexa and Carl talk about a practical response: show agility by demonstrating that you learn, adapt, and stay current. Carl mentions micro-credentialing as one visible signal that can reduce doubt. Alexa talks about communicating learning mindset and adaptability with calm confidence.
What I’d add from the field is this: senior candidates often try to fight age bias with volume. They talk more. They list more. They over-justify. That usually backfires. Presence, in executive hiring, often looks like restraint.
3: AI has raised the bar for human clarity, not lowered it
In the episode, Carl makes a point that should be obvious but isn’t: connection is harder to achieve now, especially in an AI-saturated world. The leaders who can create clarity, trust, and calm will stand out.
AI can produce words. It cannot produce credibility. In interviews, the differentiator is not whether you can explain your experience. It is whether you can do it in a way that makes the listener feel certain about you. That is presence.
The least popular truth: executive presence is not always fair.
Here’s where the discomfort lives. Executive presence can become a proxy for bias. It can be a coded way to reward conformity. It can punish introversion, neurodiversity, and leadership styles that don’t match the familiar template.
I see this constantly. Clients describe being told they were “not the right fit,” “not confident enough,” “too intense,” “too quiet,” “too polished,” “not polished enough.” These are not objective assessments. They are perception judgments.
That is exactly why we cannot simply cancel executive presence as “overrated.” If we abandon the conversation, we leave professionals to interpret and navigate these judgments alone. We also leave organisations free to keep using presence as a vague excuse. A better approach is to reclaim executive presence as a teachable skill set, and then teach it with ethics.
In the episode, we discuss cultural dissonance and code-switching. Carl describes code-switching as identifying the “target language” or “target culture” and adapting communication so your message lands. Done well, this is not self-betrayal. It is translation.
This is one of the most important reframes for diverse candidates. If you’ve moved countries, industries, or sectors, you are already bilingual in a professional sense. The question is whether you’re using that strength deliberately, without losing your identity.
The practical interview tactics that change perception quickly
I asked Alexa and Carl about what professionals can do, right now, in interviews. Here are the tactics that stood out immediately with clients.
Alexa recommends the rule of three: structure your answers with three points. It creates a beginning and an end. It signals organised thinking. It makes the interviewer’s job easier. It stops you from trying to say everything you know.
When I coach senior candidates, this is one of the fastest upgrades. Instead of “I’ve done a lot,” you get: “There are three ways I’ve delivered outcomes in this area. First… second… third…”
Alexa also makes the case for silence. A pause after a question can project composure. Many candidates fear silence because they assume silence equals weakness. In senior hiring, silence often reads as control.
Carl describes common voice patterns that get misread as low confidence: monotone delivery, and racing through content. His solution is practical: break your sentences, use rhythm, breathe, and treat your answer as storytelling rather than data-dumping. This matters more than most professionals want to admit, because voice is not just “style.” Voice is how your brain’s state becomes visible.
And finally, I addressed how your Zoom setup is part of your credibility. In our discussion, I talk about the background and environment on camera. The aim isn’t perfection. It’s congruence. If you’re going for senior roles, your environment should not undermine your message. A messy background, poor lighting, or unstable audio shows your audience you didn’t prepare. This is particularly important now that hybrid is normal and many interviews remain remote or partly remote.
What I want leaders to hear
Executive presence is not only a job seeker issue. It is a leadership issue inside organisations. Many employers complain about “talent shortages” while quietly filtering out experienced candidates because they “didn’t feel quite right.” If companies want diverse leadership, they have to get more precise about what they mean by presence. Is it clarity? Stakeholder influence? Decision-making? Calm under pressure? Values alignment? Communication structure? Or is it simply familiarity?
When “executive presence” is used as a vague reason to exclude someone, it becomes a corporate loophole. When it’s defined and coached well, it becomes a fairness tool, because it gives candidates a map and gives interviewers a more objective language.
My response to Brené Brown, with respect
Brené Brown is right that leadership is not a solo performance. She’s right that the cult of charisma is harmful. She’s right that too many workplaces reward the loudest voice.
But executive presence is not going away because hiring is still human. Human systems still interpret signals. Humans still make snap judgments under uncertainty. And in a market shaped by hybrid work, AI-assisted communication, and persistent bias, the people who can be read clearly will have an advantage.
The goal is to help experienced professionals be legible in the room, be trusted faster, and be assessed on what they actually bring, not on the interviewer’s assumptions.
That’s why coaching works. It helps you translate expertise into language that lands, build interview structure that signals seniority, and align their presence with their values, so they can walk into high-stakes conversations without shrinking or overcompensating.
If you’re job searching right now and you’ve been told you’re “not quite senior enough,” “not a cultural fit,” or “not confident enough,” I’d take that feedback seriously, but not personally. It’s a signal that your message and the room are not matching yet.
That mismatch is fixable.
And it’s also revealing.
As Carl put it so beautifully at the end of our conversation, sometimes the presence work isn’t about adapting to the room. Sometimes it’s about recognising that the room is not worthy of you.
Podcast News
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About Our Guest, Alexa Chilcut
Dr. Alexa Chilcutt is a Certified Executive Coach and subject matter expert in executive presence, body language, strategic communication, and leadership development. As faculty lead for Johns Hopkins Carey Business School’s Executive Education Business Communication Certificate and co-lead for the Academy for Women and Leadership, Alexa designs transformational learning experiences for professionals worldwide. Corporate clients have included Booz Allen Hamilton, Bloomberg Center for Public Innovation, Exelon Corporation, Constellation Energy, Sibley Hospital, Hoya Corporation, and Prometric. Alexa’s expertise has been featured in Business Insider, Forbes, Medium Authority Magazine, and Fox Digital News. She is the author of Engineered to Speak (Wiley IEEE PCS) and has published research in Public Relations Journal, Workplace Health & Safety, MedEdPORTAL, and the Journal of the American Dental Association. Alexa also serves as Executive Education faculty for Texas Christian University’s Neeley Business School and The University of Alabama.
About Our Guest, Carl DuPont
Dr. Carl DuPont guides professionals in reconnecting to their authentic voice through a transformative approach that bridges performance expertise with scientific precision. As Director of the Kennedy Center’s Washington National Opera Institute Program, Associate Professor of Voice at Johns Hopkins University’s Peabody Institute, and Executive Education faculty at Carey Business School, Carl brings rare interdisciplinary insight to leadership development. His methodology integrates his experience as an international opera performer, published scholar, improv actor, Certified Neurosomatic Intelligence Educator, and LEGO® SERIOUS PLAY® facilitator. Carl’s scholarly work appears in Oxford University Press and respected journals including The Laryngoscope and the Voice and Speech Review. Coaching clients range from Fortune 200 executives to international soloists at the Metropolitan Opera House and “The President’s Own” U.S. Marine Band. Carl has performed at Carnegie Hall, the Kennedy Center, El Palacio de Bellas Artes, Leipzig Opera House, and the Salzburg Festival. He is the founder of DuPont Consulting, LLC and holds the Certificate in Management Development from Johns Hopkins Carey Business School.
About the Host, Renata Bernarde
Hello, I’m Renata Bernarde, the Host of The Job Hunting Podcast. I’m also an executive coach, job hunting expert, and career strategist. I teach professionals (corporate, non-profit, and public) the steps and frameworks to help them find great jobs, change, and advance their careers with confidence and less stress.
If you are an ambitious professional who is keen to develop a robust career plan, if you are looking to find your next job or promotion, or if you want to keep a finger on the pulse of the job market so that when you are ready, and an opportunity arises, you can hit the ground running, then this podcast is for you.
In addition to The Job Hunting Podcast, on my website, I have developed a range of courses and services for professionals in career or job transition. And, of course, I also coach private clients
Timestamps to Guide Your Listening
- 00:00 Introduction to Executive Presence
- 01:51 Defining Executive Presence
- 04:43 The Importance of Communication
- 07:36 Challenging Traditional Views on Executive Presence
- 09:54 Navigating Ageism in the Workplace
- 12:52 Cultural Dissonance and Code Switching
- 28:33 Authenticity vs. Performance in Executive Presence
- 32:27 The Evolution of Personal Branding
- 34:22 Navigating Cultural Expectations in Professional Appearance
- 37:42 The Role of Voice in Executive Presence
- 41:23 Embracing Diversity in Professional Narratives
- 46:52 The Art of Communication: Finding Your Voice
- 52:03 Overcoming Barriers to Executive Presence
Transcript
Renata Bernarde (00:21)
this episode today is about executive presence, which by the way, is the most searchable thing on my podcast.
People love executive presence every time I talk about it or do an episode about it. It does really, really well. So I’m really excited about having two experts with me this time, because it’s usually just me talking about it myself. So today I’m joined by Dr. Alexa Chilkut. Did I pronounce it correctly? Okay. And Dr. Carl DuPont. Did I say that correctly? Oui, that’s very French.
Alexa Chilcutt (00:50)
You did? ⁓
Carl DuPont (00:55)
Oui, c’est parti.
Alexa Chilcutt (00:56)
you
Renata Bernarde (00:58)
So Alexa and Carl, thank you for joining me and my listeners today. want, before I pass the ball to you, I want to talk a little bit about you and why you’re here. I love that you’ve reached out because that interdisciplinary approach that both of you have on executive presence, but leadership development and voice and tone and combining the science with the performance.
that we need to have when we are executives is like so unique and so refreshing to see. You have authored this book, The Presence Principle: Embodying Executive Presence to Lead with Impact. And I will put a link below so people can go and purchase this book. And you both work with leaders and organizations and you teach and that.
research backed skills that translates into real world impact for my listeners is what we’re looking for. I want people that have, you know, the DNA to actually talk about this with expertise and confidence. Alexa, you are an executive coach and you work at Johns Hopkins is in your faculty lead for the Carey Business School’s Executive Education.
Business Communication Certificate. So if anybody is interested in professional development, go have a look at that program because it sounds great. And Carl, you work in this interesting intersection. I want to hear more about it of voice, embodiment and leadership presence. I love that. And you’re an associate professor of voice at Johns Hopkins University.
Peabody Institute, I had never heard of that title before. I’m sort of fascinated by it. And the executive education faculty at Johns Hopkins Carey Business School, you teach there as well. Did I say everything right? Because there was so much in the bios. I’m just picking up the things that I think are more relevant.
Carl DuPont (02:58)
Yes.
All.
Alexa Chilcutt (03:05)
Sure.
Carl DuPont (03:05)
So
one of the things that is very interesting is that the founder of our university, his first name was Johns. So it’s Johns Hopkins. Johns. Yes, you were so close. It was just that one tiny detail, but that is what Alexa and I do. We focus on those small things so that we can make them better.
Renata Bernarde (03:15)
Johns’s Hopkins. Yes, and I forget to say the S. Yes.
you
Yeah, the detail.
my goodness. Thank you for that.
Alexa Chilcutt (03:31)
Yes, and we both
so Carl and I very much have kind of different backgrounds obviously, but we came together because we started teaching ⁓ for a Fortune 200 company in an innovative leadership program where they were really kind of helping to equip their mid-level leaders to be able to rise to more senior level positions and they asked us to teach
⁓ Kind of a day on executive presence. This was years ago. And so Carl and I were like Let’s figure that out and since then it was really it resonated with people and it was ⁓ Something that was really powerful that we were surprised by when we taught them and so since then we developed a three-day course at Johns Hopkins and had been teaching that multiple times a year and corporations and then that’s kind of where we were like
At the end of the class, people always want to know what’s next, what resources can I have, and that’s really what kind of came about with our book. We created that so that people would have that continuous resource for themselves.
Renata Bernarde (04:43)
I love that. think, you know, this conversation is important for my listeners, but it’s also important for me. ⁓ I am a very pragmatic coach. I work with people that are between jobs and want a better job. And I work with people that want to take more control of their careers. And we always end up talking about executive presence every day.
Alexa Chilcutt (05:02)
Mm.
Renata Bernarde (05:03)
consultation that I have with my clients, every private coaching client, group client, we’re talking about executive presence and how that translates for them. And my biggest challenge is to convince them that there is not a single mold. Right. So I want to talk to you about this executive presence ⁓ definition that exists in rooms that are biased in cultures that
weren’t built for maybe the sort of leader that you are. Maybe you are a blue collar leader, maybe you come from a different country, maybe you have an accent, maybe all of those things that might interfere with your assumption of executive presence and other people’s assumptions of ⁓ executive presence and their expectations.
What should be adapted, if anything, and what should remain unique?
Carl DuPont (06:05)
One of the interesting things from the communication studies science is that one cannot not communicate. At any time when we are in proximity to another person, we are communicating. So that means even before you speak, your actions are being interpreted. And that can be your body language, that can be the tone of voice more so than the words.
Alexa Chilcutt (06:05)
Carl, yeah.
Carl DuPont (06:33)
We understand that only 13 % of what’s understood is from what you say. So there’s this rich range of communication that’s happening. When it comes to entering into those situations where you might encounter a different culture, if you haven’t taken stock and done the inventory of who you are, what your values are, and why you’re in the room, and instead you’re focusing on those things that bring you anxiety,
that’s going to read as well. And so Alexa and I designed this book to give the reader multiple opportunities to do the deep dive so that you know exactly what you bring to the table. And so you could put that at the front of the conversation and you can continue to guide the conversation to what’s important to you. And I think that cuts across cultural differences.
Renata Bernarde (07:32)
Hmm Alexa do you have anything to add? ⁓
Alexa Chilcutt (07:36)
You you said something a moment ago where it was, you know, either other people have a perception of executive presence or you perceive that they have a different perception. And Carl and I both coach as well. And it’s so interesting to work with people because so many times they are doing mental gymnastics about assumptions about
ways that people are perceiving them that may not be the case. And so as Carl said, really kind of doing the work to think about, okay, what are my strengths? What are my values? What am I bringing to the table? Feeling good about that, confident, understanding who you are. You know, that comes through. I think that shines through in any culture. And a lot of times people do…
Perceive roadblocks that might not be there and that don’t allow them to shine the way that they can shine
Renata Bernarde (08:40)
And I think that that’s the great thing about working with a coach, because people listening today, they might sort of understand intellectually everything that we’re saying here, but then applying it is so hard. Right. It’s that idea of the rider and the elephant, where, know, know where you need to go. It’s just so hard to guide you there. And, you know, I’m assuming both of you have great
tasks and work and homework and things that you can teach your clients. I do sort of have my own techniques as well but I love love learning from you.
What do you say? And this is something that I think came out late last year. Correct me if I’m wrong. But a very influential person in sort of my clientele and like my clients love Brene Brown. I’m assuming your clients love Brene Brown, right? I love Brene Brown.
Carl DuPont (09:37)
We all look pretty rough. Yeah.
Alexa Chilcutt (09:37)
Everybody does, of course.
Of course.
Renata Bernarde (09:40)
of course, I love her. Having said that, she said something quite controversial to me, at least, about ⁓ executive presence. Would you like to elaborate on what she said and what you think about it?
Alexa Chilcutt (09:54)
Well, and Carl, you can piggyback. ⁓ One of the things that, and she was talking to Adam Grant at the time, and so they were having this kind of conversation, and then it turned into executive presence somehow, and they both kind of talked about how it’s an outdated concept, and that it’s a very masculine concept, and that we don’t need executive presence anymore, and I think that
So we all have this old idea of executive presence. And to me, it kind of looks like that series, remember that TV series, Mad Men? That’s kind of the outdated idea of executive presence, but that’s not today’s executive presence. so it…
it bothered me because I was like, well, you’re not really doing people a service by making them feel like that’s not something that is achievable or that can be authentic to who they are. And by the way, research shows that executive presence is absolutely the perception of someone’s executive presence directly contributes to their career advancement.
And the perceived lack of executive presence holds people back. And I can cite the statistics, I can do all the things, but we know that. So yeah, there’s a little bit of conflict there.
Renata Bernarde (11:25)
Okay, what about you Carl?
Carl DuPont (11:26)
And
well, I’ll go back to a thing you mentioned just a second ago about coaching. And I am watching the Winter Olympics right now. And I’m watching the greatest athletes in the world have a coach right there, cheering them on and or consoling them when they fall. And I think that is so inspirational to think that these are athletes that train every day.
in the roughest conditions and they need somebody there to make sure that they do their best. And I think it’s the same for us in this business.
Renata Bernarde (12:04)
Mm.
Carl DuPont (12:05)
One of the things that I noticed when I was watching this clip of Brene Brown and Adam Grant speak was that she said the science is unclear. And I think that there is…
such a wide range of science to utilize for executive presence. And that’s what you’ll notice in the book that Alexa and I wrote. Every single chapter starts with a statistic from research. It’s very quantifiable how impressions are made. It’s quantifiable how voices are perceived. And it’s quantifiable how body language or even attire can contribute
or change perceptions as you go into the room. And so I think with Alexa and myself defining executive presence through the psychological resources and research and business researches, research, we’re finding a way to take our interdisciplinary skills and make them coalesce to help people put together the…
the many different pieces that it takes to live a successful corporate life.
Renata Bernarde (13:23)
Yeah, I love what you said.
I mean, my information for now is anecdotal. I’ve been trying so hard to publish with my colleagues at Monash University where I teach, but they’re too busy with other big projects and I’m too small for them. But I have like this nice sample, which I mean, if you want to use it, I’d love to share with you. My clients are all over the world and they all have similar problems because they’re all similar age and stage of their careers. They’re all 40 and above. I’m very, very certain that the listenership for the podcast is the
Alexa Chilcutt (13:47)
Okay.
here.
Renata Bernarde (13:57)
same
because that’s what pipelines my clients, right? So I get clients from the podcast. And executive presence has transformed in different ways that I think maybe Brene Brown wasn’t able to explain or maybe, you know, it’s not part of her repertoire of things that she has focused her attention on because frankly, she hasn’t been looking for work for quite some time, right? Or Adam Grant.
Carl DuPont (14:21)
or out of breath. He hasn’t looked either.
Alexa Chilcutt (14:25)
Thank
Renata Bernarde (14:26)
That’s right.
But look, I think that ⁓ if you have been in a room with other people and or even virtually in a Zoom or a Teams job interview, you know that there is a certain expectation about how you present for the job that you want. And it has to do, like you said, with your tone and your attire and your level of courage and comfort in answering questions. But frankly, this morning before catching up with you, I told one of my clients,
your blank wall will not help you get that intellectual job in ESG consulting that you want. Your homework is to go to IKEA, buy two bookcases and fill them with all of your books, because I know you have those books. Where are they? You know what I mean? When this thing about the bookcases started and I started sharing videos about this,
Carl DuPont (15:09)
If
Alexa Chilcutt (15:11)
Yes.
Carl DuPont (15:15)
and we know you can read, so prove it.
Renata Bernarde (15:25)
my mom FaceTimed me and she had like her Kindle behind her and she’s like, this is my Kindle, it has lots of books. And I said, mom, that won’t work, that won’t work. And I think that those sort of cues, you know, from the way you use technology, the way that you, you know, have your room set up in your hybrid home office, the way that you walk into a conversation and feel that it’s peer to peer.
Alexa Chilcutt (15:33)
That’s funny. ⁓
Renata Bernarde (15:52)
It’s not servant to leader, right? All of that, that intentionality of how you present yourself is so important.
Carl DuPont (15:55)
Yeah.
I think one of the things that’s beautiful about being on this side of 40 and then 50 and 60 is that you’ve probably at this point, at some point at time, been on the other side of the table.
Alexa Chilcutt (16:00)
Mm-hmm.
Carl DuPont (16:14)
you’ve been the one interviewing someone, you’ve been the one hiring someone. And so just using that little bit of experience, once you’re on the other side of the table, you realize, my God, I was thinking about all the wrong things. When I was on there doing the interview, and for me as a singer, when I was out there auditioning, I was like, okay, I gotta go in, I gotta impress them, I gotta sing higher, faster, louder, I gotta be showier.
And right now we’re doing auditions at Peabody for the next cohort. And we just want you to communicate from your heart. You can’t really impress the jury or the judges. They’ve seen everything. They’ve been everywhere. They know it all. And same thing when you’re going into these companies. They know the job. They know the description. You can’t really impress them in that sense. But if you are
And I’ll use Brene Brown, like daring to be vulnerable and show what’s important to you, showing what your virtues are, showing what your values are, and then being able to prove it with concrete experiences or examples of how you’ve made that, how you’ve operationalized that in your career. Well, that leaves an impression. That leaves a mark. And that also allows for the big thing, which is connection.
Alexa Chilcutt (17:31)
Good.
Carl DuPont (17:36)
And that’s hard to get nowadays, especially with AI. So it really opens up a channel for that human part.
Renata Bernarde (17:45)
Awesome, thank you. I have a question for you that I think is a really important one that, again, many of my clients face, and that’s showing executive presence but being afraid of ageism. So you have, let’s say, a 55-year-old job candidate being interviewed by a 30-something-year-old.
HR professional recruiter or even the hiring manager. That person will be your manager and they are 20 years younger than you. And that really is something that has made people retire early. I have people in my family that just could not cope. So what would you advise somebody going through that situation to do?
Alexa Chilcutt (18:14)
Okay.
and
You know, I same thing as as you. I mean the people that I coach are.
40s, 50s, right? And they’re all kind of in that next level, kind of next opportunity thing. ⁓ I think one of the biggest challenges is that you really need to communicate your agility.
you’re a learner, you’re a constant learner, you’re bringing a wealth of expertise and knowledge that can serve them and at the same time that you’re constantly learning, that you are right, that you’re on the edge of things with them. And so I think the stumbling block sometimes with that 55 year old and 35 year old
is the perception of outdatedness, right? And so instead, kind of thinking of this is what I’m bringing to the table, this is what I can offer. And by the way, I’m up to speed, I’m up to date, I see the opportunities within this organization that my expertise could really create different opportunities for. ⁓
you know, innovation, strategy, all of those things. So I think on some level we’ve got to communicate a sense of, what am I trying to say? Like contemporary-ness? I don’t think that’s a word.
Carl DuPont (20:01)
Well,
I think that’s a really brilliant way into that conversation, Alexa. And I’m thinking about making it very legible through credentialing. Micro credentialing is the term that’s being bandied about now. You can take a Google course for free and get a credential in a day and have a stamp mark.
Alexa Chilcutt (20:13)
Hmm.
Renata Bernarde (20:15)
Mm-hmm.
Carl DuPont (20:24)
on that credential that is this year. So you have something that shows the agility that Alex was talking about and you can make that legible to whosoever reading it as well. So I’m always encouraging my clients to go where their interests are, find some kind of small credential. No, you don’t need to go back to school and get another degree, but spend a day showing that you are capable of taking your skills and translating them into something that is contemporary.
Alexa Chilcutt (20:54)
And I mean that that’s a per and we were all talking about this before we really started recording but I mean think about today and Carl and I are both in executive education at Johns Hopkins and we have these mid and senior level leaders that fly from all over the world to come to these courses because they’re constantly trying to up level just a little bit right but I mean the topic of the day obviously is AI.
Renata Bernarde (20:54)
Mm.
Alexa Chilcutt (21:19)
and their executive education courses in AI. And so are you, you know, are you kind of up to speed with that? Are you comfortable with, hey, it’s about efficiency, it’s about maximizing my output and influence. And so that’s, mean, right now, that’s kind of the topic of the day.
Renata Bernarde (21:41)
And I’m going to add something to what you said that I think is really important because you probably work with very senior clients as well. And when I do and I ask them to do micro credentials and learn about AI and learn about whatever it is that they need to learn, I tell them, you know what?
for your executive presence, you don’t actually need to announce to the world that you’ve done all of these things. What you need to do is to showcase that you know these things. And there is a difference there. I have clients, I have one right now that I’m thinking of. She’s really senior, very much an expert in her area and in her field. And she has…
Alexa Chilcutt (22:11)
Mm-hmm.
Carl DuPont (22:11)
Yeah
Renata Bernarde (22:23)
uploaded all of her certificates into her LinkedIn and made it so sort of obvious that it almost kind of diminishes her executive presence by her need to showcase it. And I’ve been asking her to please put that down. And instead of doing that, why don’t you write an article?
Alexa Chilcutt (22:31)
and
Renata Bernarde (22:41)
a strong article about there is an article written about ⁓ AI this week, which made me like, OK, I need to talk about AI. So I told you before we started recording that I interviewed somebody to address.
Alexa Chilcutt (22:41)
Mmm!
Renata Bernarde (22:55)
this issue and it was it was published on LinkedIn. It wasn’t published on the Wall Street Journal. It wasn’t published on Forbes or Fortune. It was published on LinkedIn. So you can then showcase your expertise or the fact that you’re learning. know, if you don’t have the expertise that you can say as an executive, I feel the need to to learn about AI and I’ve done these three courses. This is why I think you should do them, too. You don’t need to be an expert. You just need to show that you’ve done it and educate people.
Alexa Chilcutt (23:03)
Mm-hmm.
Renata Bernarde (23:24)
your peers, your network as to why, that shows us active presence, not you announcing that you’ve done the certification.
Alexa Chilcutt (23:29)
Mm-hmm.
Hmm.
Carl DuPont (23:33)
Yes, I think that’s beautifully said and beautifully explained. It’s not executive announcements, it’s executive presence. that can be done in silence.
Renata Bernarde (23:43)
⁓ yes, show
them. is another type of, mean, that sort of alienation we feel from being older is one thing. There is another one that is from you having a cultural dissonance with the people that are interviewing you. Right. So I felt that a lot when I moved to Australia.
Like Brazil is such a different culture, you know, when it comes to, we are so informal. I remember in my first job being asked to organize things, files alphabetically, and I organized them all by first names and nobody could figure out, like, what have you done? You haven’t organized them. And I’m like, yes, I have.
Alexa Chilcutt (24:27)
I it so funny.
Carl DuPont (24:32)
No.
Renata Bernarde (24:32)
You
ask me that again and I would probably organize that by your nicknames. mean, look at the Brazilian soccer team. You look at the back, it’s everyone’s nicknames, right? So we’re very casual in the way that we address people and very flat. So sometimes there is that cultural dissonance, even when you move from state to state in America or when you move countries or when you move industries or sectors, even if you have a public servant going into corporate, it just doesn’t sound right. You know, there’s like a, a
way that you express yourself that needs the narrative needs to change but how do you coach people that have experienced that and want to address it?
Carl DuPont (25:13)
think about this as code switching and I think about identifying the target language or target culture. So there are very few places on the world where people only speak one language or one dialect. In most places where the borders are imagined, there’s so many cultures that are there and you can move through one.
or the other. And even when you look at linguistics, ⁓ they identify in
We know about dialect, but they also identify an idiolect. We all have an individual way of speaking, and then we’ve got to make ourselves understood wherever we’re going. One of the ways to understand what the target language is or what the target culture is, is by doing a little research and by listening and learning. We retain our adaptability throughout our entire lives as human beings. Sometimes we don’t utilize it as much as we can.
But that adaptability is really our greatest strength and it allows for that connection piece that I was mentioning earlier. So I encourage clients to think about that target and to do the work and then start doing the translation so that your best self can shine through. Because if you don’t speak the language and you kind of cut yourself off, then we don’t get to know you and we can’t value you.
in the way that we would like to.
Renata Bernarde (26:49)
I love that code switching definition in your book. So much easier than the one I’ve been using. I use Bertrand Russell’s four narrative styles and the names are really difficult. And that idea of the cultural narrative style where you want to be in that clique.
Carl DuPont (27:05)
Yes.
Renata Bernarde (27:11)
where let’s say if you’re a public servant and you’re talking to a public servant and you use all this sort of government style wording that nobody in the corporate world would understand and then you try to translate that in your resume when you’re looking for let’s say a consulting role and nothing sounds, everything sounds weird. You don’t have that, jargon, the new jargon. So code switching, I love that term.
Carl DuPont (27:18)
and
Yeah.
Yeah, I think that there is a lot of precedent for that. In all of our lives, there’s precedent for it. And so we can utilize that as a strength. How I speak at home with my family versus how I speak at work.
Renata Bernarde (27:50)
Yes.
Carl DuPont (27:51)
versus how I speak when I’m in a new environment and I don’t know what’s going on first. I listen first and then I determine what it is. So I think that that is a very underutilized skill that we all have.
Renata Bernarde (28:06)
That’s great. And, and Alexa, you both describe authenticity ⁓ in a very practical way. And I want people to understand that code switching isn’t really sort of taking the authenticity out of you. It’s you adapting what you want to say to your audience. It’s a really being taking care of that audience, understanding them, being empathetic with them. So where do your professionals most often
Alexa Chilcutt (28:22)
Mm-hmm.
Renata Bernarde (28:33)
confuse authenticity with, you know, saying everything, showing everything and, you know, code switching or putting on a mask. Do you have that problem with your clients?
Alexa Chilcutt (28:46)
You know, when we began teaching executive presence, that was really a sticking point for a lot of people because once again, the outdated idea of executive presence. And believe me, when Carl and I began teaching this, what, like four years ago? I don’t even know now anymore.
We had to do research on it. I mean, we had not taught executive presence. We had taught public speaking for professionals and business communication and all of these things. And so we really were digging into it at the same time.
Carl DuPont (29:09)
Uh-huh.
Alexa Chilcutt (29:23)
And people always got stuck on authenticity. So what we said was, you know, it’s not prescriptive. We are not telling you that you need to look a certain way, act a certain way, sound a certain way, right? You are you. And it really is, Carl said this at the beginning, uncovering what your values are, what your strengths are, what you bring to the table and being comfortable with yourself. One of the things that I love about some of the
research that we base our idea of executive presence around one of the characteristics is confidence, right? Projected confidence. We’ve always thought of executive presence as projecting confidence. But the way that they defined it based on their research was that it was a sense of self.
assuredness, know, a sense of self, ⁓ being you could be quiet and introverted and still be confident. And so when we think about you don’t have to be an extrovert, you can be an introvert. You can still project confidence. You can have grace under fire. You can be somebody who walks into a room and sits comfortably and still commands the space. And so it was wrestling with the we’re not trying to make you
put on anything. Because if you
Renata Bernarde (30:49)
Yeah.
Alexa Chilcutt (30:50)
put something on and it’s not you, then you can’t maintain it. And the biggest thing we know about executive presence is it’s not just about first impressions. It’s not just about those initial impressions or short term impressions. In fact, half of the characteristics involved in executive presence are impressions over time. Things like interpersonal integrity. Do people trust that you are authentically genuine in your relationships? That, right, you’re not…
Renata Bernarde (30:59)
Mm.
Alexa Chilcutt (31:20)
trying to get to know them and the next day you forget their name. So can they trust you? Do you have the ability to build rapport? ⁓ Values in action are one of the characteristics. Well, that is over time, right? So what kind of values do you say as a leader you have and then do people see you demonstrating that over time? Expertise and knowledge, follow through. So…
It’s we get so confused because we think we’re having to put it on when it’s really about enacting it and you can’t enact it if you don’t have a solid foundation. All right, that was a very long answer.
Renata Bernarde (31:57)
I love everything about what you said.
No, no, it’s a great answer. And that incremental ⁓ development of your reputation, of your personal brand, you know, I don’t know if you hate or love that word, but you know, for lack of a better word, that is what will ⁓ keep you top of mind and make you stick in people’s consciousness if they need somebody.
Alexa Chilcutt (32:22)
Mm-hmm.
Renata Bernarde (32:27)
to address a specific problem and I want them to think of you. That’s what I always think when we’re developing that sort of concept with my clients, which leads to a sustainable career. If people think of you for your expertise and your presence and the way that you bring a certain type of energy, you won’t do that ⁓ instantaneously. It will have to be developed over time.
Having said that, I have a personal struggle that I want to share with you. ⁓ And that kind of comes from my own lived experience. you know, I spent some time in the Silicon Valley when I was young, because my dad worked there. And I kind of just adopted that style of dressing. So basically, I was a tropical version of Steve Jobs. I used to dress with Tiva, Tiva sandals, Bermuda’s.
Carl DuPont (33:13)
Thanks
Alexa Chilcutt (33:18)
you
Renata Bernarde (33:19)
and very loose t-shirts. And I had my own business. It was my first business. And I wanted my business to succeed. And it wasn’t until I started dressing better that I started succeeding. I’ll be honest with you. There was a bit of makeup involved. was better shoes and a better way of presenting myself. And then many years later, when I was teaching that to… ⁓
university students looking for graduate roles that were from blue collar backgrounds, indigenous backgrounds here in Australia, and they were really reluctant to put on a suit. said, well, if you were doing medicine and you you said to your academics that you didn’t want to wear scrubs, you wouldn’t be able to go to hospital. If you want to be a Buddhist monk and you don’t want to wear the attire of a Buddhist monk, you wouldn’t be able to join them. So I kind of.
Alexa Chilcutt (33:54)
Yeah.
Renata Bernarde (34:12)
I of understood much later what needed to happen there. And I wondered what you want, what you have to say about that, because that’s a personal struggle of mine.
Alexa Chilcutt (34:22)
look I love talking about appearance but you know when you’re coaching somebody you really have to wait for them to open that door. You know what I mean? Because it’s such a sensitive topic to a lot of people ⁓ but just like you said it’s first of all based on the culture. You’re right the way that you’re gonna go dressed for a
Renata Bernarde (34:31)
Mm-hmm. Yes.
Alexa Chilcutt (34:49)
you know, Street job is not what you’re going to go looking like when you go to Apple, you know, the campus. It’s a very different thing.
I do believe in thinking about where am I, what is that culture, what are the expectations, and if I want a role, that next level role, well what do people in that role look like? I mean it’s that old adage of dress for the job that you want, not for the job that you have, and it does matter. you know, so I think there are things that we have to…
You can have your own style if you’re somebody who loves to wear color, you, mean, absolutely embrace your own style, but also have it in balance with what the expectations are for someone in the role that you would like to have. Carl, I know you were gonna say something.
Carl DuPont (35:43)
I was, there is research from a ⁓ study in 2020 about attire and it points to the fact that nonconformity at times you’re mentioning Silicon Valley, ⁓ that can be an added benefit in particular realms. So if you want to show charisma and that is your
Alexa Chilcutt (36:05)
Mm.
Carl DuPont (36:12)
target, then go ahead and explore what nonconformity is. If you want to show what Alexa was talking about, is understanding the culture, being a part of the culture, then you can also choose to enact that with your attire. I come from a background of the stage and I love putting on a costume. For me,
Renata Bernarde (36:38)
Yeah.
Carl DuPont (36:39)
There is nothing more freeing. Give me a wig, give me a robe, give me a crown. And now I… Yes, it’s my costume for today. This is my business costume. So because then you can play. When we realize that as Alexa always brings this quote, all the world’s a stage. And we realize that this is a costume whether
Renata Bernarde (36:45)
Carl, where’s your costume? Why aren’t you dressed up today? Seriously?
Alexa Chilcutt (36:48)
I want a crown, but go ahead.
Renata Bernarde (36:56)
Yeah.
Carl DuPont (37:08)
It comes from our family culture or where it comes from corporate culture. It’s a costume no matter what, because I think even in this age in 22 and six, I think we’re all still born naked. Is that correct? So no matter what, it’s a costume and I embrace that as a way to start playing, to feel the character. And if you use that, all the world’s a stage, I think it makes it a little easier.
Alexa Chilcutt (37:21)
think so, pretty much.
Renata Bernarde (37:24)
Thank
Carl DuPont (37:38)
to find the right costume for the right role.
Alexa Chilcutt (37:38)
Hmm.
Renata Bernarde (37:42)
Yeah, I love that. I think that so what I do and I’d love for you to sort of critique me if you sort of have issues with it. If a client has something that they are bringing into a room and a conversation, cold conversation where their expertise is unknown and they need to showcase their expertise in order to get a job or a promotion or whatever. If they are.
If they have something different from the expectation, what I tell them to do and I train them to do is to make that part of their narrative. Bring the elephant into the room with them and address that. I don’t want them to walk out of the room and have people talking about them without them in the room. want that, you know, so yesterday I was telling a client of mine about a student.
Alexa Chilcutt (38:22)
That’s the loop.
Mm-hmm.
Renata Bernarde (38:37)
Back in the day when I still worked with graduates that used to have very beautiful but heavy makeup, Indian makeup. So, and I, this was back in 2010 and back then, you know, I thought that that would be an issue to get her a job and she was so smart and I did talk to her about it and she said, no, this is my heritage. want to, I want to, you know, use this, this makeup in my interviews. And I said, well, then.
Let’s incorporate that into your introduction. Let’s incorporate that into your conversation. The elephant is in the room and you need to make them remember that they have a diversity and inclusion policy, that they want different people in their teams and not everybody looks the same at a consulting company. She got the job. She’s now working in the UK in a really high profile role in a big ⁓
Alexa Chilcutt (39:04)
Own it.
Mm-hmm.
me.
Renata Bernarde (39:32)
consulting organization. I’m so proud of her that she did not, you know, took my advice and instead I actually had to adapt what I was telling her to do and it worked. So since then I’ve been doing that with my clients on the spectrum, with my clients on, you know, that have, you know, my queer clients, all of the things that are different are brought into the narrative.
Alexa Chilcutt (39:48)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Carl DuPont (39:58)
I think about that I’ve encountered what this situation that you’re talking about in many different ways, with the intersectionality of my identity and then all of what I bring. And it took me so long to realize that if they didn’t want me there, I didn’t wanna be there.
Renata Bernarde (40:06)
Mm-hmm.
Yes, absolutely.
Carl DuPont (40:26)
And so when you bring your full self, just like this client that you’re talking, you really are underlining the fact that you’re interviewing them as well. Are they really going to be able, is this really a place that can see value?
can hold value, can be true to their word, can work with a person from a different background. Because if it’s not, then that will eventually be a very uncomfortable work environment and nobody’s gonna be happy as well. And it’ll be their loss because as you said, this was a brilliant client and a brilliant person. So that took me so long to understand. It took a lot of rejection and hurt and it has really started clicking.
Alexa Chilcutt (40:57)
Mm-hmm.
Renata Bernarde (41:05)
Yeah. Yeah.
Carl DuPont (41:14)
and it’s made me just thrilled for the spaces where I am welcomed and I embraced and I can do my best work in that way.
Alexa Chilcutt (41:23)
Mm-hmm.
Renata Bernarde (41:24)
Awesome. Carl, I’d love to ask you about voice as well, because I’m so, so interested in this and I know nothing. So I really want to know ⁓ more. What do you think are the common voice issues that get misread as low confidence in interviews? ⁓
Alexa Chilcutt (41:45)
Mm.
Renata Bernarde (41:46)
or a lack of executive presence because of voice or tone or accent. I’d love to hear your views on that.
Carl DuPont (41:54)
Well, when I think of something that I want to talk about with voice, one thing that always comes to mind is people who talk monotone and who talk in a run-on sentence without any kind of grammar and just go on and ⁓ use a lot of filler words. So it’s the tone, it’s the pitch. We are a species of storytellers.
Renata Bernarde (42:11)
Yeah.
Carl DuPont (42:21)
And one of the things I ask my clients to do is whenever I catch someone just getting up there speaking, and these are the most brilliant people, right? We work with engineers, we work with scientists, Johns Hopkins is a research university. So someone will be up there talking about something, their life changing, world saving research, and they’ll speak about it just like this in a monotone. And I’m like, no, no, this work is too important.
You have to tell a story and imagine that you are telling this story to a four-year-old. How would you talk about it? Now, of course, we let the pendulum swing all the way over there and then we titrate to get it to where it’s appropriate for an interview or a presentation at a conference. But it’s got to be about the story with the voice. And I guarantee that person who is speaking without taking a breath
that’s a big one, Renato. People get up there and think they don’t have to breathe anymore. Or someone that is speaking without punctuation, they forget about their periods and commas. If you put that same person in a room where they are reading a story to a four-year-old or telling a story to their friends, they’re going to be animated and they’re going to be able to use the three that I talk about often, which would be pitch, volume, and rhythm.
They’re going to be able to implement those. And so I like to help people just see, ⁓ these are the strengths that you already have. This is how you communicate when you are really passionate about something and you want to get a message across. What if you took those skills and put that here in the corporate environment? And then my job as a coach is to make it safe for them to do that because oftentimes there is some underlying sense of anxiety.
that is preventing them from having the full range of expression.
Renata Bernarde (44:23)
Yes, yes. And ⁓ and then, and by the way, you know, and in case you’re worried, because sometimes I talk to people and they like, ⁓ not everybody who is on the spectrum should, ⁓ you know, disclose that in an interview. That is a conversation that many people have with me if they come for a one hour consultation and they want to know, should I disclose? It usually is if they cannot fix that.
if their, you know, autism is such where their monotone cannot be fixed. So then we work on how we’re going to address that in the interview and own our narrative and the way that we present. So I remember with one client, it was about, OK, what will make you more comfortable? if I could bring.
my visual aids, my maps and my projects. Yes, bring it. Let them know that you need that. then I mean, have CEOs on the spectrum that have worked with me. know, and yeah, and I’m all of that. And, you know, people with some sort of disability as well and some sort of, you know.
Carl DuPont (45:17)
Absolutely.
Alexa Chilcutt (45:26)
Of course. They’re brilliant.
Renata Bernarde (45:37)
things that are outside of the normative sort of executive presence, ⁓ sort of ⁓ way of thinking. And I kind of think that that is important for people to know that if you tell me you’re on the spectrum, but we can manage without letting people know and you don’t feel comfortable letting people know, yeah, let’s work with that.
Alexa Chilcutt (45:42)
Bye.
Renata Bernarde (46:01)
But if we cannot, then that’s how we sort of workshop different ideas. The other thing that I think is interesting and I’m happy for either of you to address is the fact that you can tell I’m a woman and I talk like nonstop. I can talk underwater. Like I have to really pace myself, especially if I’m in an interview, not to waffle too much and not to say too many words and not to go on and on and on and on. That is another
sign of, I mean, it can signify nervousness, anxiety, a bit of stress. ⁓ For me, it’s excitement because I love talking to you both. So, you know, I kind of tend to talk more than I should. Do you sort of have a recipe to fix me? Because I would love that.
Carl DuPont (46:38)
Mm-hmm.
Alexa Chilcutt (46:52)
Okay.
Renata Bernarde (46:52)
I do
that I need to stop talking you guys
Alexa Chilcutt (46:55)
No, I mean, think part of it is always preparation, which you’ve done, right? We kind of have a, here’s kind of some questions we’re going to address and you know, I think you are good at reading the room and you might, I think all of us at different times in this podcast were like, wow, I just said a mouthful. mean, so. ⁓
think that’s just normal on some level. But when you’re in spaces, one of the things that I tell clients is if you’re, let’s say, in an interview and you’re worried about running on and on, you know that maybe one of the questions is gonna be why do you believe that you’re a good fit for this position? You have all of these things that you wanna talk about.
In your preparation, this is a trick that Carl and I learned from another book, but we’ve implemented it and we’ve coached it to everybody else and everybody, like, it’s a thing. Because it really is the rule of three. If you can…
Do preparation where you say, well, know, there are three, there are three aspects about my experience that directly relate to this position. You’re giving yourself a framework for that answer. There’s a beginning and there’s an end. One, two, three. You’re also communicating to the other person that you’re an organized thinker.
So automatically at the beginning of answering that question, you know, and we also teach that nonverbal communication is also in the silence.
So if someone asks you a question in an interview or maybe at the end of a presentation, you’ve got a great job. You have to get up and give presentations. Everybody is always afraid of those questions at the end. Have someone ask the question, raise your eyebrows.
count to one or two, three in your head, and then answer. Well, you there are three ways I would do that. ⁓ But that kind of rule of three gives some organization and, like I said, a cutoff place.
Carl DuPont (49:01)
And one of the things that’s tough with the cutoff place is being okay not saying everything you know. Because the clients sometimes are like, well, I have this thing to say and this thing to say and if I slow down, they’ll cut me off. And I say, what’s the worst that could happen? If you say three things like Alexa was talking about.
Alexa Chilcutt (49:09)
Mm.
Carl DuPont (49:29)
and you don’t say six things, what is the worst that could happen? And so exploring that to allow the brain and the body to feel a sense of safety with saying three things and then stopping talking is an important part of embodying that.
Renata Bernarde (49:48)
I love that. I love that. And I’m guilty of that. I need to sort of work on that with my therapist or something. And I can see that being something that for an anxious job seeker, know, somebody who really, really needs a job, they may think that more is more when in fact more is less, right?
Carl DuPont (50:10)
Mm-hmm.
Renata Bernarde (50:10)
because
then you don’t have an anchor to hold on to as somebody who needs to make a decision to remember that person by because that person sort of pulverized you with so many ideas that it’s hard for you to remember them.
Alexa Chilcutt (50:21)
for me.
Carl DuPont (50:26)
Mm-hmm.
Alexa Chilcutt (50:26)
Yeah,
and the three is a memory device. So when you’re giving a speech, when you’re giving a presentation, if you have three main points, if you’re opening a meeting and you say, we’re going to do three things today, we’re going to discuss this new policy, we’re going to make a decision about such and such, and we’re going to figure out next steps. People are more engaged because they feel like there’s a roadmap. And
Renata Bernarde (50:30)
Mmm.
Alexa Chilcutt (50:55)
Because they’re engaged and there’s a roadmap, they’re gonna follow you more. They’re not gonna tune out and they’re gonna take away more. So like you said, instead of the six, 10, 12 things, having three gives you that anchor, exactly what you said, and it is going to help that listener remember more. So we call it cherry pick. Think about, I have this much information I really wanna share.
Renata Bernarde (51:03)
Yeah.
Alexa Chilcutt (51:24)
But if I were to boil it down to the most important things or the things that I want people to walk away with, what would those three things be?
Renata Bernarde (51:33)
Exactly, that sounds pretty good. And ⁓ I want to finish off with this question for you, because one of the easy ways to potentially diagnose somebody as not having the executive presence that they need to achieve their goals is when they come to us and they are technically brilliant, very good at what they do. They should be an easy pick for an interview or for a final offer.
but they keep hearing, you’re not senior enough. You don’t have that right experience that we were expecting. And I’m not saying that every time this happens, it is about executive presence, but that’s kind of ⁓ something that sort of is a proxy, can act as a proxy. And then you can interrogate a little bit more to find out if that’s the case. I want you to tell us a time when you’ve worked with a candidate that had that situation and what happened
Alexa Chilcutt (52:06)
Hmm.
Renata Bernarde (52:33)
that they were able to fix it.
Alexa Chilcutt (52:37)
Okay, off the bat, I can think of, I was just having this conversation with someone else. I’m working with several people at the moment from one large corporation and then just some other clients kind of through Johns Hopkins. And they’re all…
kind of would fit into that category on some, many of them would, but they have many of the same issues. And so I go from one person to the next and I’m like, I just heard this, right? And so I’ll tell you two. Number one is they have been given a seat at tables at meetings with larger groups of executives or leaders, and they’re not comfortable sharing their ideas. They self-censor themselves.
Well, some other people are talking and I don’t know if I should really say this thing and should I take up space? And these are brilliant people. So it’s number one, it’s sharing, feeling comfortable using your voice and sharing those ideas. Number two, it’s about self advocacy and telling your story. And so we often talk about you’re doing fabulous work.
Renata Bernarde (53:30)
you
Alexa Chilcutt (53:51)
but everybody else is so busy thinking about their own work. It’s not that they’re not trying to recognize yours, but you have to be able to tell the story. And so when you’re getting a project update in a meeting, tell a little bit more of the story.
You know, well, because I had previously worked on this other project, I’m bringing some of that expertise into this and it’s informing me in this way. It doesn’t have to be a novel, right? can, Carl likes to say, it doesn’t have to be a novel, it can be a movie. So, doesn’t have to be a whole long thing, but you have to be able to tell your story and you have to think about who are the people that are gonna be in that room where those decisions are being made? And am I creating the impressions about my leader?
through how I talk about my work and how I speak about myself when I have those opportunities. So those are those are the two things. Carl.
Renata Bernarde (54:44)
love that. Yeah.
Carl DuPont (54:47)
And
I encourage people to explore their inner monologue. What are you saying to yourself in those instances? And we were speaking about confidence a little earlier. It’s something that is a practice. And Alexa used the word that we enact.
So confidence can be something that you build. It’s a muscle, just like attention, just like biceps. So start to listen to that inner voice. Is it cheering you on? And if it’s not, then that’s an opportunity for you to have executive presence. In the boardroom, that’s up here. Because it starts here, it starts here. Can you find small things that you can say, bravo, Carl, you did that really well?
and then let that translate and start to radiate through everything that you do and I guarantee others will start to notice it as well.
Renata Bernarde (55:47)
Carl, just because very few people watch this on YouTube, I have not been able to crack the code on YouTube yet. So it’s embarrassing how few people, you touched your brain and you touched your heart. And I want you to explain which one comes first so that people that are listening on Spotify can figure that out.
Carl DuPont (55:59)
Yes.
well, just then I touched my brain first before I touched my heart. I am really interested in the neuroscience of leadership, and that is my current obsession, if you will.
and how our brain is designed to get us moving, to keep us safe, and how it influences and connects with and talks to the body on this this cellular level. It’s really, really fascinating and could probably be a whole other podcast. It’s so connected. Our thoughts are not just abstract. They’re actually
a part of our body and they live in the body and they live in the muscles and they live in the sinews and they live in the fascia. So it really is important to start to analyze what’s happening and I’m touching my brain again and how that influences how you feel and now I’m touching my heart for all of you in Spotify land.
Renata Bernarde (57:18)
Okay. All right. Look, Alexa and Carl, I feel like I’ve known you forever. I don’t know. I have like the sense of kinship with both of you. Thank you so much for joining me and my listeners on the Job Hunting Podcast. You’re always welcome to come back if you have any more books, if you start developing more ideas about, you know, the neuroscience of leadership. I’d love to hear from you. And yeah, you’re now.
Alexa Chilcutt (57:18)
you
Carl DuPont (57:25)
You
Renata Bernarde (57:46)
friends of the pod so come back anytime. Do you have any final thoughts things that you want people to know or places where they can find you let them know now and I’ll put links below
Alexa Chilcutt (57:58)
Well, I think we encourage people to connect with us on LinkedIn. We’re both very responsive and post a lot of, you know, kind of articles and tips and things like that. And then we actually have a website, thepresenceprinciple.com. So, and we will send you the link. You’ll have the link to the book and all the good things.
Renata Bernarde (58:18)
the link.
Carl DuPont (58:20)
Yeah, and if you connect with me on LinkedIn, just DM me voice and I’ll send you a little PDF that I call tips, tricks and truth to help let your voice resonate throughout the world.
Renata Bernarde (58:33)
lovely. Well, thank you so much.
Alexa Chilcutt (58:37)
Thank you.
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