50 is the New 40 

Episode 299 - First 90-Day Leadership Moves Matter: Proven Strategies to Listen, Act Symbolically, and Avoid Hasty Personnel Decisions in New Roles

Guest: Kurt Mosley

Guest: Neill Marshall

I sat down with Neill Marshall and Kurt Mosley of HealthSearch Partners to talk about the first 90 days of an executive appointment. While their expertise is focused on senior roles in healthcare, the lessons are universal: in 2025, how a leader shows up on day one can either extend a career or stall it. 

What struck me is how much has changed in the hiring market and how much has stayed the same. For experienced professionals navigating career transitions, the insights from this conversation should serve as both a warning and an inspiration. They confirmed what many of my clients are feeling: that the margin for error is thin, expectations are high, and hiring trends are evolving fast. Job seekers need to keep up. 

The 90-Day Litmus Test 

If you’ve ever landed a leadership role, you know that there is pressure to deliver immediately. This is at odds with the first 90 days framework, which values relationship building and listening to achieve better results. The 90-day milestone has become the de facto performance checkpoint for new executives. Neill and Kurt recounted stories of candidates who thrived by taking symbolic action early on and of those who failed because they acted without understanding. 

One CEO moved into the hospital dorms to live among junior staff to better understand his people. Yet another fired a subordinate within 30 days and lost their job shortly after because they misread the culture. These are important examples as they illustrate the central paradox of leadership onboarding: be decisive, but don’t rush. Show vision, but don’t alienate. Fix things, but listen first. 

Boards and hiring committees want visible results. But results born of haste, especially people decisions, can be catastrophic. Many of my clients struggle with this dual imperative. They are hired as change agents, only to be punished for moving too quickly. Famous basketball coach John Wooden’s famous advice, “be quick but don’t hurry,” feels particularly relevant here. Leaders who balance listening with meaningful action are the ones who earn long-term influence. It’s not enough to survive the first 90 days. You have to build a foundation for the next 900. 

The Mid-Career Cliff: Addressing Age and Fragmentation 

For those in their 50s and 60s, there’s another layer of pressure: Age. However, contrary to the myths, Neill and Kurt confirmed what I see every day in my practice: Age is no longer the barrier it once was. In fact, many boards now seek seasoned executives who bring stability, perspective, and the emotional intelligence that only comes with time. 

That said, experience alone won’t cut it. Today’s employers expect older candidates to be digitally literate, visibly engaged, and current in their thinking. The client who talks about AI trends will fare better than the one who lists their grandchildren. This is not about inauthenticity; it’s about relevance. 

Since the pandemic, I’ve worked with countless clients who were forced out of long-term roles and have spent the past few years jumping between consulting gigs. Neill acknowledged this pattern too, and made it clear that it complicates hiring decisions. Job-hopping, even when circumstantial, creates perception problems. The antidote? Secure a long-term role and stay put. Rebuild stability. Let recruiters come to you, rather than the other way around. And in the meantime, tap into your existing network. Relationships, not resumes, will get you back in the game. 

LinkedIn is Not Optional 

Both Neill and Kurt expressed their surprise and frustration at candidates who treat LinkedIn as an afterthought. For many professionals, this is a costly blind spot. They assume that their experience will speak for itself. It won’t. Your LinkedIn profile is your digital handshake. If your photo is outdated, your summary is full of jargon, and your job history is vague, you’re not just being overlooked, you’re being disqualified. 

Kurt made an excellent point about buzzwords: they obscure more than they clarify. I see this too often. Corporate professionals use language designed for internal audiences and forget that recruiters or hiring managers may not share their vocabulary. 

A concise, plain-English summary of what you do and why it matters will always outdo a resume or LinkedIn profile full of technical jargon and industry-specific language. If you can’t explain your job to a five-year-old, it’s time to revise. 

What Employers Are Really Looking For 

When I ask my new clients to describe what they want in their next role, many respond with sweeping generalities: “a great culture,” “alignment with values,” or “room for growth.” These are fine goals, but they’re not job-search strategies. Specificity wins. 

If you’re in the job market today, you need to: 

  • Know what kind of company you want to work for. 
  • Understand your value and how it applies to their challenges. 
  • Communicate that value in 30 seconds or less. 

Hiring managers are busy. They’re not going to excavate your career story. You need to surface the best of it, clearly and confidently. 

A Shifting Talent Economy 

One of the more sobering points Neill made was this: the talent pool isn’t shrinking, it’s aging. In the US, there are now more people over 60 than under 17. This isn’t a temporary demographic blip. It’s a permanent shift. It also means that staying in the workforce longer is both more common and more competitive. Executives must continuously prove their vitality, not just physically, but intellectually and emotionally. 

Final Thoughts 

There is no shortcut to a successful career transition. But there are clear patterns. Those who succeed are adaptable, clear-headed, and humble enough to keep learning. They show up with a plan. They take symbolic action. They listen before they speak. And they speak the language of business, not bureaucracy. 

If you’re navigating a job search, the lessons from this episode are essential: Show up smart, show up modern, and most importantly, show up ready to lead. 

About Our Guest, Kurt Mosley

Kurt Mosley, Associations Practice Leader at HealthSearch Partners, is a nationally recognized speaker and healthcare workforce expert with over three decades of experience. Formerly Vice President of Strategic Alliances at AMN Healthcare, Kurt has advised hundreds of state hospital associations, medical societies, and health-related nonprofits on leadership and strategy. Together with Neill, he helps guide association and healthcare boards through critical executive transitions—insights that inform the firm’s 90 Days series.

About Our Guest, Neill Marshall

Neill Marshall is Board Chair and Co-Founder of HealthSearch Partners, an executive search firm that specializes in mission-minded healthcare leadership. With over 30 years of experience and more than 600 senior-level placements, Neill brings a depth of insight into hospital and health system governance, executive transitions, and strategic leadership. He is also the architect of HealthSearch Partners’ popular “First 90 Days” series—an ongoing exploration of how new CEOs can make an impact early in their tenure.
Renata Bernarde

About the Host, Renata Bernarde

Hello, I’m Renata Bernarde, the Host of The Job Hunting Podcast. I’m also an executive coach, job hunting expert, and career strategist. I teach professionals (corporate, non-profit, and public) the steps and frameworks to help them find great jobs, change, and advance their careers with confidence and less stress.

 

If you are an ambitious professional who is keen to develop a robust career plan, if you are looking to find your next job or promotion, or if you want to keep a finger on the pulse of the job market so that when you are ready, and an opportunity arises, you can hit the ground running, then this podcast is for you.

 

In addition to The Job Hunting Podcast, on my website, I have developed a range of courses and services for professionals in career or job transition. And, of course, I also coach private clients

Timestamps to Guide Your Listening

  • 00:00 Introduction
  • 05:54 The Importance of the First 90 Days
  • 10:00 Leadership in Healthcare: Navigating Change
  • 16:10 The Evolving Role of CEOs Post-Pandemic
  • 19:59 Navigating Career Transitions and Tenure
  • 23:55 The Impact of Age on Leadership Roles
  • 30:04 Preparing for Leadership Interviews
  • 33:58 Leveraging LinkedIn for Career Opportunities
  • 39:49 Effective Communication in Job Searches

Renata Bernarde (00:44)
Today I’m joined on the podcast by two very experienced recruiters, Neil Marshall, board chair and co-founder of Health Search Partners, and Kurt Mosley, the firm’s associations practice leader. Renowned healthcare workforce strategies these two are, they only recruit senior executives working in healthcare. Even though this is

mostly healthcare related, their experience, it can be translated to senior executive recruitment in every industry. Healthcare Partners is based in the US. It was launched to specialize in healthcare leadership recruitment. So they have a signature search process that emphasizes values alignment and cultural fit, which led both of them

to be very focused on supporting the new recruits into their first 90 days. They created a series called the first 90 days, which has a collection of insights from top leaders and provides insight on how executives need to hit the ground running on those first 90 days. We start discussing first 90 days and then we move into leadership styles post pandemic.

what you need to do to remain ⁓ employable as you get older and you’re seeking out leadership roles in your 50s and 60s and beyond. In this conversation, my goal was to get new and cut to explore what leaders have to prioritize in order to get employed and to succeed in their roles. So if you’re interested in first 90 days, let’s say you just got a job or you’re getting ready to get a job and you want to hit the ground running,

and succeed. So this episode is for you. If you are ⁓ looking for senior executive roles, this episode is for you. But if you’re also in the future, ambitious for your career and you want to have a sneak peek and an understanding of how senior executive recruiters operate, how they think, their mindset, then please listen to this episode. In addition, I will list below in the episode show notes and on my blog.

⁓ Some interesting articles that you might be willing to explore. There’s an article from Forbes from June 25, how great leaders win teams over in their first 90 days. I found this really interesting and I have sent it to some of my clients. ⁓ There are two Harvard Business Review articles that I am recommending. One is the first 90 days updated and expanded and the other one is what effective CEOs

do after the first 90 days. And this is a brand new article, so I think it’s worth reading. There’s one from McKinsey. It really isn’t about the first 90 days. So I think that that is important as well. We discussed this with Kurt Neil, this idea that you may not be able to.

action, all of the things you promised in your interviews because you need to go into listening mode. This can take longer than 100 days and 90 days and so forth. ⁓ So please have a look at the links below ⁓ if you’re interested in articles to read. You can listen to this podcast on Spotify, on Apple, on Amazon, and you can watch it on YouTube if you’re interested in seeing what we look like and where we are.

and having our faces as you explore the ideas that we’re sharing. Remember to subscribe to this podcast and if you want to help us a little bit more, give us a like, a thumbs up, write a review. It really helps us reach out to other interesting listeners like yourself. Thank you so much for listening. Here is a curtain meal for you.

Renata Bernarde (04:50)
We’re here to talk about recruitment and I’m here with two experts.

And we love having people like both of you on the podcast because it adds so much color and richness to the conversation. And these are conversations that individual job candidates would never be able to have because ⁓ usually when you’re job seeking, you’re job seeking by yourself. You’re lucky if you get an interview, you’re even luckier if you have time with a recruiter of your caliber.

So thank you so much for reaching out. ⁓ The Job Hunting podcast is listened mostly in the US, even though it’s recorded here in Australia. That’s not surprising. Australia is a big country with a small population. So ⁓ we do have a loyal listenership here, but most of my listeners are from the US.

Kurt Mosley (05:45)
Yeah.

Renata Bernarde (05:54)
Personally, as a career coach, I have lots of clients in health, health services, medtech, ⁓ pharma, which is really surprising to me. I didn’t expect that when I started coaching, but they are from all over the world. So UK, Singapore, parts of Asia, Australia, Melbourne has a big pharma ⁓ industry here, a big hub here in Australia.

And of course the US all over from San Diego to Boston. So really interesting to have both of you here ⁓ because I find that my clients do reflect my audience. So be interesting to see who we reach out to. Most particularly, I’m interested to learn more about your interest in the first 90 days. How did you begin identifying the first 90 days as a critical

inflection point for the executives that you were placing.

Who wants to start? Maybe Neil?

Neill Marshall (07:02)
Yeah, I think as two things happened. First, I had a candidate, ⁓ a placement ⁓ who stubbed their toe in the first 90 days and it was really bad. And I started really looking at that. The second thing frankly was Kurt and I were interviewing a guy by the name of Richard Parks.

CEO of a huge hospital system in Lubbock, Texas, 22 hospitals, 5 billion in revenue, he’s huge. And he said, well, Neil, when I start a new job, ⁓ I move out there, ⁓ mama stays home and sells the house and moves the family, and then I move into the hospital. And I said, Richard, Richard, I know everybody works hard the first.

you know, the first couple of months. said, no, Neil, I move into the hospital and I live there for three months. And he said, the things that I learned by moving into the hospital are amazing. said, the first time when I did it in Lubbock, the very first morning, the residents, cause he stays in like a dorm where all the residents are, right on campus.

And so like old people do, I asked the resident, hey, how did you sleep? And one of them said, I slept horribly. The mattresses here are horrible. And Richard said, you know what? I can fix that. And he called the VP of facilities and got all new mattresses that day. ⁓ And Kurt and I were hooked from then on.

Renata Bernarde (08:58)
Yeah. Kurt, is that your experience as well? What do you have to add?

Kurt Mosley (09:03)
Well, I think we started this mainly because there’s such a high turnover rate in health care executives here in the United States. Many of our health care executives have been through quite a career change. mean, I think a lot of them say the last four years was the last 30 years of their life because of COVID and everything that’s happening. And according to American College of Health Care Executives, our turnover rate is the highest it’s been in years because a lot of our executives now are saying, I toughed it out through COVID, I got through this.

We’ve just had an election. don’t know if you’ve heard, joke, things are changing. And a lot of them just said, you know, I put in my 25 years and we’re changing and there’s high amount of CEO turnover rates. So we kind of got hooked on this because it was like so many CEOs were changing careers. People were moving up. We had people also going into second careers. Most importantly, Renata, we had people unretiring coming out. So they were saying, you know, I

It’s been five years, what do I do now? It’s a different world. Like for example, I used to play football, but how do I get back in the game? So that was really our episodes for actually trying to put this together. And the information we’ve gathered from our CEOs has just been invaluable. Their input and the stories they tell are just, we’re happy to share those with you today.

Renata Bernarde (10:22)
Yeah. And Kurt, do you think that the biggest differentiator between those that stay the course and are successful both on a personal level by not burning out and on an external level by influencing the strategy of the business is the biggest differentiator the first 90 days?

Can you tell that people will stumble right at the beginning?

Kurt Mosley (10:53)
Well, in a lot of it’s sort of in the first 90 days, it’s really the basis for their career. And a lot of people, they take these defining actions Renata and these actions in their first 90 days really set the tone for their whole career there. And it’s people always say the first 90 days, the first 90 days. But we it’s not just the first 90 days. It’s really the blueprint foundation for long term success. It really is. And it’s their actions. we’ll get into those stories of its actions and how they start.

what people expected them. And we always like to look at this as opposed to having a 90 day exit interview as a 90 day stay interview. How are things going the first 90 days so we don’t have to have that six month, it’s just not working out. So again, it really sets the tone. I always like it to the fact it’s the first day of the rest of your career. Yes, it’s important. Because people are, everybody’s looking to you, especially in the CEO position.

Renata Bernarde (11:50)
Okay. Now, besides moving into the dorms with the residents, what are some of the things that you see or you believe work when you’re working with these leaders ⁓ that they can do in the first 90 days to really stand out?

Neill Marshall (12:17)
The first thing is to set, to decide the tone that you want to set and then make symbolic actions and do symbolic things ⁓ in order to heighten that tone. ⁓ I think that that’s a big one. ⁓ I had…

One of our guys ⁓ said that he built his 90-day plan and then he had all of his subordinates build a 90-day plan. And then they merged the plans and they talked amongst each other and made sure that all the plans were congruent moving forward. And they did that every 90 days. I thought that that was good.

Renata Bernarde (13:06)
Mm-hmm.

The thing that ⁓ is of concern to a lot of executives moving into organizations is balancing the need for action. Usually when they are appointed by ⁓ boards or investors, there is a lot of ⁓ promises made. ⁓ But as they walk in, they need to do a lot of listening. So balancing the listening and the understanding. ⁓

Taking that information up to a board level before your action during that initial period is a really difficult balancing act as they’re trying to show performance, but they are also trying to show that they will co-design things with others, that they will incorporate what their team has seen on the ground even before they walked in.

Have you found that this is a difficult balance for the executives you have worked with?

Neill Marshall (14:14)
Yeah, it is. ⁓

And what we, I guess what we caution is ⁓ if you’re going to make a big move in the first 90 days, it better be the right.

Because if it’s not, I know one ⁓ executive just recently that ⁓ decided one of his subordinates was not gonna cut it and fired that person in the first 30 days. What he had no idea was that this person was beloved in the organization, knew everybody and it…

caused ripples so, so impactful that this person did not make it. He got fired about two weeks after he fired his subordinate.

Renata Bernarde (15:14)
Yeah, that’s a good, that leads me to asking both of you more specific questions about leadership, right? So I know that the expertise in the room today is hospitals and I think that what can be translated to other sectors and industry is the diversity of the teams and

the employees in a hospital environment that can mimic the diversity in mining or a big factory and so forth. ⁓ What sort of leadership do you think is needed for somebody to work with that diversity of employees to optimize service to the public? Kurt, maybe let’s start with you.

Kurt Mosley (16:10)
Sure, I’d like to kind of continue on your last question too and transition. But in that first 90 days, we’ve heard our executives tell us as to ⁓ expand on what Neil said to make the right decision. And boards are always saying, you answer to the board in hospitals, you answer to the medical staff. That’s a big part of it. ⁓ Years ago, I used to do a presentation. was called Doctors are from Mars, Administrators from Venus. And it was about the whole

⁓ you know, whole ⁓ friction, if you were there, but I think it’s really important that when you get into a new position, urgency is part of the job. The boards are expecting things, but, ⁓ you know, time-sensitive decisions, ⁓ teams are looking to you for direction, but moving too fast and especially without clarity really, really confuses your new employees. And sometimes it undermines the strategy. ⁓ There’s ⁓ a…

basketball coach who passed away UCLA, John Wooden. He had one of the most amazing careers in college basketball and he always had a quote and I love to use this but it says, he said, be quick but don’t hurry. And that’s really important. think in anybody getting into a new position because speed without context leads to hasty decisions. It’ll also undermine what you’re trying to do. Also people making decisions too quickly. think it…

shows insecurity because somebody is trying to prove themselves in their new job. especially if you’re a CEO, your demeanor and how you’re acting sets the tone for the whole organization.

Renata Bernarde (17:49)
Has the leadership changed post pandemic in style?

What do you think?

Neill Marshall (17:59)
That’s an interesting one. ⁓

In healthcare specifically, our business and our work is in hospitals mostly, the C-suite always talked about how important people were.

And now they really talk about how important their people are. ⁓ Because, you know, he who retains and attracts wins in this environment. Because if you can’t hold your people, there aren’t thousands of people waiting to take their place. There’s no one waiting to take their place.

Renata Bernarde (18:47)
Yeah. What do you think Kurt?

Kurt Mosley (18:50)
Well, I think post pandemic, think doctors in the hospitals and the administration have gone closer. We have a lot of doctors now assuming the roles of CEOs in their new jobs. So there used to be a wall, if you will, between the two. It’s like, that’s the doctor’s division, that’s the administration position. But I’ve seen them work closer now, more closer than ever, because there’s such cost constraints on what’s going on. In America, we face, you know,

Renata Bernarde (19:12)
Mm-hmm.

Kurt Mosley (19:20)
Sadly, from a health standpoint, have a majority of our population has two comorbidities and it’s just our population is not as healthy as it can be. So we see more and more administrators and doctors working together and seeing the results of the same as opposed to working from opposite sides of the fence. There’s not that silo anymore. Everybody seems to be working together. Toward the common goal is how do we take care of our patient population?

How do we remain profitable? How do we make payroll? And most importantly, how do we try to make this population better upfront, as opposed to sick care, as opposed to well care?

Renata Bernarde (19:59)
Is there ⁓ an ideal tenure for a CEO to remain? I saw an article, I think both of you posted on LinkedIn recently about the tenure sort of accelerating, like the turnover accelerating at CEO level. I wondered if you think that that’s a good thing or a bad thing?

Kurt Mosley (20:07)
That’s a good one.

Neill Marshall (20:28)
Yeah, ⁓

⁓ I think that there can be a time where ⁓ a CEO’s message no longer is being accepted. ⁓ Does that mean it’s a year into it, five years into it? I don’t know, right? But there comes a time where it might be time to move on. ⁓ And so some turnover I think is good.

You want your CEO to be there long enough to have actually done something, right? And the reality is it takes three or four years to accomplish some of these really strong strategic goals. So I think most boards would be happy to get really strong six to seven to eight years out of somebody.

Renata Bernarde (21:30)
Yeah. What’s your view Kurt?

Kurt Mosley (21:33)
You know, I think we’re seeing people looking, there’s no time, as Neil said, but I think people are looking for fresh faces in America. You know, our healthcare system, almost on a daily basis in the news is how do we fix our healthcare system? Because nobody would design the system we have here in America today. It was sort of, you know, put together piecemeal, if you will, over the last 30 to 45 years. So a lot of people are looking for people coming outside of the industry to come in and say, how do we fix it?

What have you done in your industry? How did that industry grow so fast? How did AI capture the market? How did the auto industry change? So they’re looking to people outside of that to really help get some fresh faces and redesign our healthcare system. Because again, I don’t want to besmirch it, but it’s broken and it needs to be fixed. And we’re looking to see how do we take care of this population, this majority of them.

need additional health care. How do we do that? And it may be somebody coming from outside the industry. again, ⁓ fresh faces. It’s good in the industry. I think it always is. It always shakes it up. And you see it all time in our sports analogies where the team’s doing fine with this. They bring in a new coach just because there’s a different point of view and there’s somebody different and some different ideas. So I think it’s good. But again, there’s really no time frame for it. But people are looking now to other people outside of the industry. We’ve never seen that over the last 10 years.

Renata Bernarde (22:49)
Yeah.

Okay. What I have noticed with some of my clients that are very senior is that some of them have lost their long term jobs just before the pandemic or during the pandemic and have have since done one year consulting jobs and since they have been unable to gain tenure again since 2021, 2022.

⁓ I’m currently working with a client here in Australia that has that situation, 27 years in the same organization and then five lots of consulting jobs contracts since then. ⁓ Is that a problem when they are looking for full-time roles again? Does it raises red flags for you if somebody comes with a chop

⁓ recent, a list of recent appointments.

Neill Marshall (24:01)
think they’re going to have a tough time competing. ⁓ But that doesn’t mean it’s over. What I tell folks that have that is go find the next one and make it and stretch it out as long as you can so that people are now coming to you again. So you’re there two years. And by the time you’re there two years,

we as recruiters, as executive search consultants will be after you again. Then you can make the move or start making the move and maybe you’ll go three this time and then go three the next and then you’re back and then you’re back fine. But it’s gonna make it harder to compete, which means you need to have a better network. You need to work the people that you’ve worked with in the past, people who know you, people who are willing to gamble.

because they know you.

Renata Bernarde (25:02)
Yeah, I agree. ⁓ With ⁓ the market the way that it is now in July 2025, ⁓ how is the ratio for each of the jobs that you advertise? Are you very good high quality applications, too many to go through, or you are working with a niche that

means that things are still equalized between supply and demand of jobs and candidates.

Neill Marshall (25:39)
Yeah, because of the niche that we’re in, I don’t know that we could ever say this, these are the number of people that applied or anything like that because we’re going after them. ⁓ But if it’s a good opportunity and especially if it’s in a good place,

There are plenty of people who are going to look and be interested. ⁓ It’s our job to find the right ones, right? ⁓ But at our level, yes, we’re seeing there are plenty of ⁓ people. I’ve had folks tell me part of the problem is that, ⁓ you know,

50 is the new 40 or 40 is the new 50 and 50 is the new 60, right? People are staying around longer and longer and longer.

Renata Bernarde (26:50)
okay.

So 40 is the new 50. So it’s the other way around.

Neill Marshall (26:53)
Yeah, 40s, yeah, you’re right. apologies.

Kurt Mosley (26:55)
You

Neill Marshall (26:55)
40

is the right end. so, I mean, when I started in this business 30 years ago, we couldn’t present to a board a CEO candidate that was over about 55. We just couldn’t do it. That’s not something you talked about, right? But you just couldn’t do it. Today, I wouldn’t blink an eye. I wouldn’t blink an eye.

Renata Bernarde (26:58)
Yeah, okay.

Right.

Neill Marshall (27:23)
⁓ As a matter of fact, I was talking to a physician executive. Physician executives tend to run a little older because they’ve done their, not only their med school and their residency, but then a clinical practice, right? So they run a little bit older, but I was interviewing this guy and I realized, wow, he’s real, real senior. I finally said, I how old are you? He said, I’m 83. I said, what are you doing?

interviewing for a new job, come on, 83.

Renata Bernarde (27:58)
Yes. ⁓ wow. Kurt, what do you think?

Kurt Mosley (28:00)
And I also think it’s our

population in America has had a dramatic shift. mean, for the first time ever last year, we have more people 60 and older in America than we do 17 and younger. So as Neil said, there’s a lot of good people in that 55 to 60 range just because that’s what they’re stacking up. Now, obviously, as I mentioned earlier, people want fresh faces, but our dynamic is we’re an older country.

You know, and we have to look to the people we have here for our workforce. So I think people are more open to that. People are working longer, as you said. know, we’re doing so well now. are people that over the 60, you know, can still, you know, lot of people, as Meal said, you talk to them, you look at them, you don’t know what age they are because they just act, just, know, my old, my grandmother used to always say that she said, how old would you be if you didn’t know what you were? So I think a lot of our executives are taking that under advisement and just saying, listen,

This is what I want to do. again, our dynamics changing here in America, and that needs to, when we’re looking at candidates, we need to take that in consideration.

Renata Bernarde (29:06)
Okay. That is wonderful news for my listeners and my clients. Most of my clients are a hundred percent over 40, but I have clients in their fifties and sixties. My oldest client is 71. So there you go.

Neill Marshall (29:20)
or not I will

tell you that I, I tell, when they start apologizing, when they say is this, and I’m like, listen, again, it’s not the way it was. It truly isn’t.

Renata Bernarde (29:38)
And ⁓ how should an older client who is stepping into new leadership roles, how should they prepare to have encounters with you, to have interviews for these jobs? Is it somewhat different from the more, the younger, less experienced, ⁓ more dynamic ⁓ candidates?

Do you have different expectations from somebody that has more experience under their belts?

Neill Marshall (30:12)
Yeah, I mean you expect that they have, I’ll give you a dumb example. ⁓ I had a guy that ⁓ he sent me his resume. I mean, 30 years into business and it was one page, like three point font, one page. I said, what are you doing? If you can put your career on one page, you haven’t done enough. Okay, so expand that. And so yeah, we’re expecting them to have a lot of accomplishments under their belt.

Right? But even more importantly, if you’re a more senior executive,

you do things like you don’t talk about how old you are, you don’t talk about the grandchildren, you talk about AI, okay? You talk about things that are young. I’ll tell people all the time, you know, what’s your hobby? And if they say I do this, this, this, this, and this, and I work out,

If they’re senior, say, you work out number one. That’s the first thing you talk about. And you don’t talk about, and you spiff up your wardrobe. Anything less than about three or four years old does not get worn. You need to look good. You need to look younger, if you will. Do everything you can to polish yourself up.

Renata Bernarde (31:55)
Okay, ⁓ Talking about polishing up. Yes, Kurt, please go ahead.

Kurt Mosley (31:58)
And we’re not if I can add. No, no, no,

I’m sorry. They should approach things differently too. think when they’re because they’ve done it in the past and not to be not to brag about it, but they’ve done it. But we always caution them, you know, know stories about how you did it in the past or how we did it 10 years ago or 15 years ago. And as Neil said, I really like that point where he said you talk about AI because that’s on everybody’s lips now. So, you know.

Get up with the times, but again, show confidence because you’ve done it before. Don’t be over confident, but show that you’ve done it before. Act like it. At the same time, talk about what your new role is not going to be, not what you did the last 20 years.

Renata Bernarde (32:41)
Okay, there I agree. ⁓ Talking about all of that and polishing up and being, you know, with the times, ⁓ I’m assuming that being on LinkedIn, I see both of you are very active on LinkedIn is important, but I’m more curious overall, how do you find them? Because, Neel, you mentioned that a couple of times that you will find them. ⁓

Are you using LinkedIn or is it your network?

Neill Marshall (33:13)
A little bit of both. mean, you know, we’ve been in the business for 30 years. We have our own proprietary database, right? ⁓ But I will also be, ⁓ if I’m doing something that’s very specific and narrow, yes, I would absolutely go on LinkedIn. And Renata, I am shocked at the number of people who don’t have a picture, don’t have an updated picture and haven’t…

done, there’s almost nothing there. I think, you know, how could you not want somebody calling you about

a huge position. Even if you’re happy. I had one person who griped a little bit one time about me calling them and I said, look, I said, when you need to worry is when I stop calling.

Renata Bernarde (33:58)
Hmm.

Yes. Yeah, yeah, it’s interesting.

Kurt Mosley (34:17)
I think

LinkedIn is very important. I just ran an article about a month ago about our healthcare cuts in America, which you hear about every day, and new policy was called when the scalpel cuts too deep. And I had people that I hadn’t talked to in 15 years come, hey, buddy, how you doing? And was like, people I’ve been trying to get a hold of, but I think it’s a way to get out there without really selling the opportunity. It’s just that you understand the industry, you’re knowledgeable about it.

You’re taking a position, you’re taking a stance on things. And it’s most importantly, we’re not here, starts a conversation and that’s where you go from there. I mean, that’s how we find a lot of people like that. And I’m very lucky too, I’m a national speaker and I get to speak in front of our hospital associations and our medical societies. And I get a lot of leads to that. People come up afterwards and say, not at this meeting, but here’s my card. And we talk on Tuesday, of course.

Renata Bernarde (35:09)
good, good. Are you still meeting with candidates? Because some recruiters have told me that they don’t have time anymore to meet with candidates. Neil, you’re laughing.

Kurt Mosley (35:19)
We’re both laughing.

Neill Marshall (35:21)
Well,

let me tell you, yes, depending on the level, but yes, absolutely. know, video is good, but it’s not great.

⁓ I went from having all of my introductory ⁓ interactions via telephone to 10 years ago switching that and all introductory is done via video. So there are no more introductory phone calls. I don’t call anybody and say, have you thought about this job? Let me send you the specs and we’ll talk again. It’s like this.

first and then after that if it’s a high enough level then yes I go we’ll go sit down. I can’t get everything I need unless I can I can be right in front of

Renata Bernarde (36:24)
Yeah, I get it.

Kurt Mosley (36:27)
AI has helped Renata, but body

language is very important, especially when you meet somebody. If they’re one of the top two candidates we’re presenting, yes. You just, know, how they act, how did they fidget, their demeanor, their eye contact. And that’s something that ⁓ Zoom really can’t, you can’t interpret through that. I think it’s still very important because that’s…

your reputations, who you’re presenting to your client when you present that candidate. And if it’s something that you’re unaware of, and maybe their appearance, maybe anything, you just never know. So it’s really important to have that, especially if the client says, I’m interested in that, and you can caution them on, well, this is in my face-to-face interview, this is what I encountered. ⁓ Full disclosure, if you will.

Renata Bernarde (37:13)
Okay. Are you with that first stage of interviewing when you have the conversations, I’m assuming via Zoom or via Teams, are you sort of cutting out the candidates that struggle with the technology? Because I still have issues with my client struggling.

Neill Marshall (37:32)
Boy, I

try not to. I try not to. But I gotta tell you today, you’ve gotta be able to do this. Yeah, as much as I don’t want to, yes, you do, because you have to be able to do this.

Renata Bernarde (37:36)
Yeah.

It’s quite interesting and generationally seen the difference that, you know, my generation and above, I’m an ex, ⁓ will struggle with technology from time to time. And then the younger clients I see struggle with the phone calls. They just do not pick up the phone and they will not call anybody. They just don’t use the phone for calling, which is quite bizarre for me. Yeah.

Neill Marshall (38:23)
My

children, I don’t think I’ve ever gotten a phone call from my children. It’s either a FaceTime or a text, or they show up.

Renata Bernarde (38:31)
Yes.

Kurt Mosley (38:32)
I had a situation where a young hire and I was talking to the client and I said, how’s the new hire doing? And they said, well, ⁓ communication is lacking. I said, they’re doing a good job. And he said, absolutely. And he was a younger person. was ⁓ just past GenXer and this was a baby boomer was talking to. And he said he won’t answer my emails. And I said, and I said, did you text him? He goes, no, I emailed him. And I said, did you text him?

And he texted him right in front of me and 15 seconds later he got a text back. So I said, you know, there’s your answer.

Renata Bernarde (39:07)
There

you go. Yes. Yeah. And I think part of my coaching includes people understanding that a reach out via LinkedIn, for example, is okay. Just last night, I was with somebody who could very well be a great candidate for you, a client of mine. And he was like, I always worry when they reach out to me via LinkedIn. And I’m like, why do you worry? He said, I don’t know. It’s just weird. And I’m like, well, that’s how they can reach out to you.

And it was a very

Neill Marshall (39:37)
It’s not. It’s not.

Renata Bernarde (39:39)
high profile global executive search firm. I’m not going to name names here, but I’m like, you don’t have to worry. They really want to talk to you. Reply to them.

Neill Marshall (39:49)
Right. Yeah,

you have to. You have to because that may be the only way to do it. you know, I’ve been out recently and I probably reached out to 100 or 150 people on LinkedIn for a million dollar job. OK, but it’s not a group of people that I know that that will, you know, that I’ve got their cell numbers that I can text or whatever. ⁓ And I’ve

reached out via LinkedIn. Interestingly, an awful lot of people responded positively. I had a couple that thought that it might be a fake. I don’t know what to tell you. But most were okay with it.

Renata Bernarde (40:36)
Yeah.

This is a question for both of you about LinkedIn because I see you both are active on LinkedIn. ⁓ Neil, you mentioned before not having photos and not having a lot there ⁓ being a problem. I agree with that. But is there something that people do on their LinkedIn profiles of our activity that gives you the ick? Like you go, no, I’m not going to reach out to this candidate. I think it would be interesting to ⁓

to help listeners understand what you think is not appropriate to be on LinkedIn.

Neill Marshall (41:18)
So…

I can’t think of anything that’s an ick factor. I will tell you that you need to be just as accurate on LinkedIn as anywhere else. You need to be accurate because it won’t hurt you until it hurts you.

So no embellishing, no, you know, ⁓ if you have this degree, you have this degree, either you have it or you don’t.

Renata Bernarde (42:01)
Yeah, Cut.

Kurt Mosley (42:04)
I think ⁓ photos, and ⁓ I don’t know why, but a lot of them, there’s a professional photo and there’s not a professional photo. ⁓ A shortened bio, if you can’t read it in 30 seconds, why do it? then elongated work history, I get it if you’ve been at the industry like I have for 35 years, but be precise and to the point and probably you don’t need to go back to your third or fourth job because people want to know.

They’re on LinkedIn. I got 30 seconds. Does this make any sense for me to talk to this person further? So concise, concise bio, shortened work history, and an accurate professional picture.

Renata Bernarde (42:45)
Okay, okay, that will help. Do you have any final advice for the listeners who are looking for senior executive roles at the moment?

Or any roles, really.

Kurt, let’s start with you.

Kurt Mosley (43:03)
Yes,

yeah, sure. I was just thinking that was a good question. I think most importantly is to know what you want. First of all, you people always say, you we talk to people about first 30 seconds, people say, well, ⁓ I’m open to anything. Well, that’s vague is not very good. You know, really isn’t. As you know, here’s what I’m here’s what I want. Here’s my career goal. Here’s what I see my me fitting in your organization.

⁓ And really, when you’re doing the initial interview, because I always talk about it as a first date, but be precise. know, don’t, you know, don’t use a lot of isms, if you will. You know, like ⁓ I want something that’s part of the corporate culture. We better be able to find what corporate corporate culture means to you and what it means to that company. So people are throwing out a lot of buzzwords nowadays. know, the granular is a big one. So that’s.

Be precise and step out and say, is what I want. This is how I feel that can fit in your organization. Vague doesn’t work either. Really doesn’t. I mean, I think it’s very, I know we were talking to a client that said we were talking, we do a lot of work with face-based clients here in America and they said, are you okay with face-based? And they said, yeah, I’m okay with it. Well, it probably just meant they don’t know what that means and what it’s like to work in that environment. So be honest with yourself first before you go out.

And people can tell if you’re confident or not. We all know it. So,

Renata Bernarde (44:34)
Yes,

I really like what you mentioned about buzzwords and the corporate lingo. I will record an episode, a solo episode addressing this because Kurt, you mentioned ⁓ short bios and ⁓ how to present yourself on LinkedIn. I sometimes I’m about to work with a client, I check their LinkedIn profile and I cannot figure out what they do because it’s all buzzwords.

Neill Marshall (44:44)
You ought to.

Right, right, right.

Renata Bernarde (45:03)
Right. So

it’s really important. Just the other day I was ⁓ prospecting a client from Los Angeles. She booked ⁓ a discovery call with me and it was only when I spoke to her that I got what she did because I felt that there was too many buzzwords on the LinkedIn profile. And even though I could tap into things and understand a little bit more, I still don’t have that time.

It’s a prospecting call and I’m in a hurry. Neil, what do you think?

Neill Marshall (45:36)
I had a client,

I had a candidate one time who was a consultant and I was interviewing him and every time he used a buzzword, I stopped him and I asked him to tell me what that means because I need to understand. And finally, after about the 10 or 12th time, I stopped him and asked him to define, he got frustrated and left. I mean, he was like, I’m done with this.

That was about him not understanding that you have to be able to communicate in a language that everybody understands. would be like if you spoke Chinese and I’m trying to talk to you in English, that doesn’t do you any good. I’ve got to be able to speak your language.

Renata Bernarde (46:24)
Yeah, yeah, no, it’s, part of the homework for my clients. They need to explain what they do to a five year old and they can’t do that, then we have a problem.

Neill Marshall (46:31)
Exactly.

Thank you, thank

you for saying that and thank you for doing that because you’re exactly right. And I get it, you get into a company culture and you have a certain way of speaking but you need to learn how to speak like everybody else to be able to explain it like everybody else.

Renata Bernarde (46:40)
Yeah.

Well, Kirt and Neil, it was wonderful having you here on the podcast. Thank you so much for making the time to talk to me and to all of my listeners. And I hope some of my listeners will reach out to you as clients or candidates and we’ll start a new and refreshing, as you mentioned before, conversations with you for the roles that you advertise. So thank you so much for being in touch.

Kurt Mosley (47:17)
Thank you very much, it great being with you today.

Neill Marshall (47:20)
Thank you. I enjoyed meeting you and enjoyed speaking with you.

 

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