Transcript #53. Job hunting and career progression for the trans, gender diverse, and nonbinary professionals - with Jacob Thomas.

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Renata:                Susan Hunter is a naturopath and wellbeing expert who works with individuals and organisations on their physical and mental wellbeing. She runs a practice called human 2.0 where she helps people think and feel better by improving their biology and psychology. She has over 15 years of clinical experience in nutrition and functional medicine, and a double degree qualification in naturopathy with a background in psychology. Her mission is for there to be happier, healthier people and workplaces. And in order to achieve this, Susan believes that it's important to embrace what it is to be the best human being that you can be. I can completely relate to her mission. And once she got in touch with me, I did some research on her and I knew that she would be a great match for this podcast. So I invited her to have a chat with me about the importance of wellbeing during job search, the importance of looking after your health when you're job hunting, or working and, you know, trying to get a promotion, those things can add to your stress and add to your level of anxiety as well.

Renata:                It's very important to stay positive during challenging times. So I thought she would be a great person for a chat on this podcast. Now, this is what happened after I interviewed Susan, I connected with her so much that I had a feeling that she was the naturopath that my friend Mel had been mentioning to me for many, many months. Now, this is what happened after I interviewed Susan, in Melbourne, there must be dozens if not hundreds of naturopaths, but my friend Mel has been telling me that I needed to see this specific naturopath that she thought I would connect. And that I had lots in common with. So after I interviewed Susan, I messaged Mel and I said, tell me the name of that naturopath again. And yes, you guessed it. It was Susan Hunter. And I didn't even know before I interviewed her.

Renata:                So that was so, so weird. Was it fate? I don't know, but I'm really glad that our paths have crossed. And I hope that you enjoy this episode. Have a listen, don't forget to subscribe and follow this podcast. Consider signing up for my newsletter. You can do that on my website, www.renatabernarde.com. There's a link to it on the episode show notes and remember that all of the books and podcasts and things that we mentioned, I provide a link to them on the episode show notes, so go and check it out. Bye for now enjoy the chat.

Renata:                So Susan, let's start by talking about your career, right? Tell me about how you got to where you are today and why you decided to go down this path.

Susan:                   Yeah, it's a good question. Uh, look, I think my work life began when I was really young. Um, my parents were migrants that came from the Middle East in the seventies to Australia, so it was all about opportunities. Um, and so they had their own mix business and I was working in their mixed business on a daily basis from the age of 11 or 12. Um, and then, you know, just through the period of time after I finished high school when I did both my degrees, I've just done various jobs, whether I've been a food court cleaner, a tele marketer, a debt collector, a waiter, a bartender, a barista, or a retail assistant I have often worked in service. Um, but the thing that got me into studying my bachelor of health science was some travel in Asia. Um, after I did my first degree in, it was a bachelor of arts with a psychology and health sociology major, and I still wasn't sure where I was heading in what direction for my career.

Susan:                   So I did some travel and I came back to Melbourne and I was looking into the natural science. And I did one subject that was, um, you know, purely sciences. So it was an anatomy and physiology subject. So I wanted to sort of look at that. And then I looked at the history and philosophy of natural medicine. And when I'd been in Asia, I had explored a little bit of, you know, natural therapies and the philosophy of natural therapies really made sense to me. You know, you're really trying to identify the underlying cause of someone's disease or disease rather than just putting band-aids on things and treating signs and symptoms. And so after trying both out of those subjects, I sort of felt like, yeah, this made sense to me, it really resonated for me. And I have such a big sort of curiosity around people's behaviour and the human body and how it will operate.

Susan:                   And, um, yeah, so I studied that for, took me six years to do that degree while I worked full time. Um, and then as soon as I graduated, I was out and, um, working in a health food store and just slowly but surely building up a client base organically just by talking to people and converting them to clients. And I've had my own consultancy for the last almost 15 years. Um, and in that time I have lectured to doctors and psychiatrists and pharmacists around the importance of gut health in mental wellbeing, which is a bit of a passion of mine, mental wellbeing. And, um, I've written articles for journals I've contributed to textbooks. So take a very evidence based approach, love, you know, getting stuck into the research and then putting it all together and having a very holistic view of, of wellbeing and disease.

Renata:                It's wonderful. You know, the reason why I really wanted to interview you is because we connected through LinkedIn. And then you sent me a link to another webinar where you presented. I think it was part of a conference. I'm happy to link that to the episode show notes when this podcast is out and 10 minutes in and you were talking about LeBron James, and I'm like, I like this girl. I really do. I don't know if you had a chance to check the stuff that I do, but I'm always talking to job hunters and, and career and professionals in the corporate sector explaining to them the importance of training, the importance of having the right mindset, taking care of your health and the importance of failure, understanding your leadership style. And, and LeBron James is great because he is such a well-rounded athlete.

Renata:                He loves reading about leadership. He takes very good care of his health, you know, in his off court. So he's a good example of, and he also gives great importance to his, um, supporting the team. Does he, the coaches and the people around him. So he, he's not a know it all he understands. And that interview that you recommended, which I then went and listened to that podcast with him. It was him with his coach, which I thought was great to give his coach an opportunity to say a few things and explain how they work together. So that was…

Susan:                   Yeah, yeah, he's such a great example. I think he, and people like Roger Federrer, are really dispelling this like myths around the importance of grinding and not sleeping and pushing and going really hard. And I've kind of flipped it and there, you know, basically encouraging others through their own actions to really prioritise the importance of rest and recovery and consistency in recovery. And, um, you know, the more I now work with mostly professional women in that sort of integrated wellbeing space, where we go beyond their biochemistry and their genetic predisposition, it really is about treating your body. Like you're an athlete, it's your mindset, it's your biology. It's also the habits, the rituals and routines that you have on a daily basis. And what LeBron James does so well, is he prioritises consistency in recovery, just as much as that time that he needs to be up and performing well. So, you know, he aims for 10 to 12 hours of sleep a night and he's, you know, a nutritionist coach is just obsessive about how much have you slept? How much have you slept because they really understand the importance of sleep and the restoration.

Renata:                Yes. No, absolutely. And it's really interesting. I have this way of working with clients in different ways. And one of them is they can just book a consultation with me as they would with you, you know, because most coaches will say, Oh, you have to do three months and people can't afford to do that. So if people want to have a one-on-one with me, they can, and then they usually book it before an interview because they figured it out and they go, Oh, I need to prep for the interview. And I suppose most coaches would then go through a list of questions, you know, those common questions and this, which I think is important to do, but I usually start off with, okay, this is what you need to do. You know, how is your protein intake, you know, make sure that you're sleeping.

Renata:                Are you a good sleeper? Do you sleep well before a stressful event? Is your interview at 8am in the morning? You know, how are we going to perform if you're not, because if it was me going for an interview at eight or 9:00 AM, I just wouldn't sleep well, I know myself, right? So I have read research about how the military in the US work with the coffee intake of their soldiers. Have you read that piece of research? It's so awesome. So I, I kind of, I'm not going to say everything cause, you know, I'm, I need to make sure that you tell me, but I kind of worry about those things about the performance, people that are either under caffeinated or over-caffeinated and they tired because, if you are an excellent, excellent professional, which most of my clients are like 99% of my clients can definitely do the job. If they're not ready when the interview comes.

Susan:                   Yeah.

Renata:                It doesn't matter how good your career was. If you're going to be stressed, your brain just will not perform well enough for you to get the job.

Susan:                   Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, you've got to be doing that consistent background, work around energy management and state management. And, you know, if you are, if you have a consistent routine around mindfulness or making sure that you're getting asleep at the same time each night and waking up the same time each day, so your body doesn't feel like it's in a jet lag state, because no mixing that up feels like switching time zones to your body, working with the clocks of your body, and then really tuning into what the flow of energy looks like throughout the day, because we have these rhythms that our body operates with. So I really strategically use caffeine. Um, and I don't know, there are points in the day where it can really harness and get your energy jumping, you know, so that your cognitive function is really switched on.

Susan:                   And then there are times where you're just revving an already revved engine and it's really going to backfire and not work for you. So there are the little tidbits that I sort of pepper into, you know, tips and tricks you can be using to enhance performance. But at the end of the day, it really does come back to the individual because everybody has their own genetic predispositions. Everybody has their own individual experience of stress or anxiety or insomnia or low energy. And what drives that will need to be addressed differently to you than it would be to the person, you know, after you.

Renata:                That’s right. Yes. But we do have a lack of sleep epidemic in the world. Don't we? You talking about this, there is a podcast which I will link in the show notes. That's all about sleep. And I've been obsessing about that podcast. I was listening to it a lot last year. And what I think has happened in Melbourne lockdown is that a lot of variables have been taken out of the picture because we are isolated. There's not a lot of things happening in our lives, so we can really identify if we have a problem or not, let's say with sleep, which I can say with absolute certainty that I do, because you know what I mean? Like if you take away all the other stresses and you still can't sleep eight hours a day without putting a lot of work into it, then you have a problem.

Susan:                   Yeah. It's been interesting. There's been some preliminary data that's been released around how people are sleeping during the COVID pandemic. And I think for the most part, people are sleeping better.

Renata:                I know everybody is, but not me.

Susan:                   It has to do with not having to get up early. When you don't know, you can get to sleep until your body naturally wakes up. So a lot of people don't have to rush out the door to be at a desk at their office. And, others have really struggled. I know in the initial stages of the pandemic, I was not sleeping. And I think it had a lot to do with just the anxiety and the adrenaline fuelled, you know, increasing cognitive load where I had to be really conscious of physically distancing. And how am I going to get my super marketing done without getting sick? You know? So there was a lot to process.

Susan:                   And the other thing people are sort of saying a lot is that they're dreaming more. And I think that has had a really even dreaming more or remembering their dreams for the first time or having more vivid dreams. And I think this is so much to do with our body's innate ability to help us repair and restore. So when we have more REM sleep or dream sleep, it's our body's own emotional first day, but this kind of unconscious therapy that we're doing while we sleep to process our anxieties and our concerns, or even our grief and sadness around things lost during our quarantine and the state of the world right now. So, yeah, that, that's definitely been something I've observed as we've gone through pandemic, but also just looking into the initial data, knowing that people are actually sleeping a little bit better, but you mentioned your sleep has been outed. So what have you noticed?

Renata:                I think I come from a family of people that don't sleep well from both sides. So I know that, and I remember that being a discussion, you know, on the dinner tables and family discussions. Oh, nobody sleeps in his family. So I don't know if I've kind of just, if it is true, it's in our DNA or if I just kind of think, Oh yeah, I'm just like them and I don't sleep well. But I can feel this weight lifting off my shoulders of the lack of stresses. So the day-to-day of this COVID lockdown in Melbourne is really low stress. But when you remember why you are locked down, then you send the lead feel like, Oh my God, is this going to be forever? So, but I've kind of learned to compartmentalise that.

Renata:                I think most people that I speak to, you know, clients and friends have that, like your days are just so easy and breezy and there's no catching trains, trams going to work worrying about anything. Uh, even, you know, a lot of people are struggling financially. A lot of people are losing their jobs. I'm not in that bracket, and you know, when you remember it, you feel guilty. So there's that, you know, sometimes you go, Oh, I shouldn't feel so good. So you like go through those sort of, yin yang situations during the day. How have you noticed that? Have you, um, yeah.

Susan:                   Yeah. I like using the analogy of the storm. You know, we were all in the Corona storm and some of us are on yachts and some of us are on life raft. And I think all of our feelings, all of the things we're experiencing a very valid ones and, and need to be experienced and felt. I really loved the work of Dr. Marc Brackett. Who's written a book called ‘Permission to Feel’ where it really talks us through the importance of emotional literacy. And so just being able to identify what you're feeling and then just allow that to be is really important. So I think, yeah, everyone's just on a different boat.

Renata:                We've never experienced anything like this before. And I think that that's really the scary part. I don't know if you still have family overseas, but when I moved to Australia, which was 20 years ago, I've always felt that if something goes wrong, I can be on a plane back in my home country in a day and a half. I never, in my wildest dreams thought that I wouldn't be able to do that sort of thing that sometimes, you know, I'm having this super chill day. And then I think what has happened, you go through this ups and downs during the day. And I know maybe,

Susan:                   Yeah, yeah. I think it's a really common experience. And I think that, you know, that really raises uncomfortable feelings. It can really raise anxiety levels when we kind of dial into thinking that and feeling it. And I think the biggest antidote to that is really just settling into acceptance and really going into a state of just focusing on what can I control? What can I let go of that is beyond my control at the moment. And for me, I feel like the pandemic has really been a big process of just focusing on controlling the controllable. And then just, you know, kind of riding the storm and looking at what the other side of this looks like.

Renata:                Yeah. I think the most important thing for me and for this podcast is to support others. You know, I get great, Oh, I just feel amazing when I'm talking to clients or preparing a written content or thinking about who I'm going to interview for this podcast and bringing you on board as part of that. So I like to go through some ideas with you of how the listeners can start preparing for what could be weeks or months without work. So the podcast is called the job hunting podcast, which means it attracts a certain type of people who have lost their jobs. It is also listened by people who are keen on career advancement. So, and I, it's kind of a bigger version of my clientele. My clients are either people who have lost their jobs, people who are, who can see the storm coming, they can see that this is not to, you know, this is not looking good.

Renata:                They are not very comfortable where they are. They either think their job is going to end soon or they're ready to go. They're not happy where they are. And the third type of client, which I really like is the client who is a high performance client already, and understand how important it is to be actively in the know about how to advance their careers. You know, even if they're okay now. So I have about 20% of my clients who are not looking for work, but they just need to know how to work better, advanced their careers, perform better so that the jobs come to them. Ultimately that's my goal is for you not to need to apply for work as much, but for the work to come to you. So the head hunters call you, recruiters call you and your network. Think of you're going to have opportunities, but considering a lot of people are losing their jobs in Australia and overseas, that can be really traumatic. Some of the people that have reached out to me have been in the same organisation for sometimes two decades, never done anything else, but work for that one sector or that one organisation. Um, it's very stressful. Susan, how do you cope with that?

Susan:                   Yeah, look, I think there's so much to process with just losing your job. And I think particularly if you've got a lot of your identity kind of tied up in what you do, it's an easy thing to say, but a hard thing to do for a lot of people, but I really do see the immense benefit in having a mindfulness or meditation practise. Uh, this was something I fought for years, you know, I think I just felt like I was too busy doing, and I didn't want to do any being. And, quite often we really do value productivity, um, and an activity over just stopping and being still, and just allowing those clouds in our mind to just clear a little bit, you know, and just to have a bit of blue sky shine through. And that's the way I kind of view it when I think about having a meditation practise.

Susan:                   I think people, when they begin to understand the physiology behind meditation start to grasp the importance of it. And I think it's a really good way to help put us back in our body. When we are quite frazzled, anxious, overwhelmed, fearful, and it can just help us get back into more of that rest and digest parasympathetic nervous system mode, where we're calmer and we are able to be more rational and we able to make better decisions about the way forward. So I think it doesn't have to be anything fancy just using the insight timer app and being able to just give yourself two minutes to begin with where you just close your eyes and you focus on your breath in and out deep breaths, and then you build it up and it might become five minutes. Then it becomes 10 minutes. And then there are all sorts of meditation training types of meditation you can be doing.

Susan:                   But what we're effectively doing when we go into a meditative state is trying to get the theatre brainwave activity happening, where we're calm and we’re relaxed. And when we are stressed, we're often in our beta wave activity, which has just, you know, that very kind of heightened, hyper-conscious kind of, you know, almost irrational state for some people. And if we're in that all the time, it really impairs our decision-making capability, our memory forming, you know, it's really bad from a cognitive perspective to be in a chronically stressed state at all times. So really trying to find little points in your day for deep breathing or for meditation is a really, really good starting point.

Renata:                No, that's a great tip. And are there other activities that can allow you to switch your brain like that? You know, things like would music help or other things that people can do?

Susan:                   Yeah. I think music is definitely one, swimming. Some people often say to me, just swimming laps is really meditative. For other people its running, um, is really meditative. So it's a very individual thing. Music is really my amazing first state. You know, it just depends on what you want to listen to in order to elevate or to calm. Um, it's for some people, yeah, it's a really great way to just help them calm down. But I think also just back on that person, that's lost their job, the temptation to kind of switch into late nights, watching lots of Netflix or Amazon prime and letting go of the routine that you had is probably okay for a week or two. And then you really want to reign it in and get a routine happening again. Yeah. And I think when we understand that the body has a number of clocks and rhythms, you know, timed, eating, sleeping at the same time, waking up at the same time each day, these are all things.

Susan:                   Our body really, really likes, even timing our exercise really helps the body to sort of stay in a rhythm and a flow. That just means we perform better. We feel better. We think better, we behave better. So, I think that's a really important thing. And I think it also gives us purpose when we structure our day, you know, and segment it as well, where we're doing things for our body, for our mind and for the benefit of us moving forward and being new career ready or new job ready as well while we're also working, you know, working to find work.

Renata:                Yes. Susan, the other person in the audience that I care about a lot are those who have been unemployed for a long time. And let's say you were made redundant or something, you know, middle of last year, many times when you receive a redundancy package, you think, ‘Oh, okay. I might just enjoy myself for a little bit.’ So I have quite a lot of people that have reached out to me and said, I received a redundancy package in September. And I thought to myself, never had a break all of my career. I'll just have a break until the rest of the year, and look for work in February. And of course that was, you know, a bummer because now they've basically find themselves without work and without a safety net because they probably used up all of their savings. So that long term anxiety is different from that kind of first cut, you know, isn't it. Yeah. And keeping yourself resilient day in day out for months on end is really tough.

Susan:                   Yes, absolutely. And it's such a mindset game. It really, really is, you know, and you've got the extra stress of a pandemic. You may have elderly parents, you may have immune compromised children. Like we don't really understand each individual's personal experience, but to add in long-term unemployment on top of that is terribly stressful. And so my big take on that in order to feel like you're back in the driver's seat and you can get through this period of time is to control the controllables. And I think it's so important to really focus on, you know, the efforts like really being enthusiastic about the future and optimistic as well. Because it, you know, if you're going to be negative and, you know, emit that kind of mindset, you're not going to really manifest or have good things happen and opportunities arise. So I'm a really big believer in being able to control your beliefs, control the amount of effort that you put into things. I think it's,

Renata:                Can you explain to me this idea of manifesting things?

Susan:                   Yeah well I think it might sound a little woo, woo. But it think, you know, the energy you put out, you know, you attract. Like attracts like, I like to think of it a bit like a wifi signal that we all emit. We all have little wifi signals and we either attract or repel people or things to us. I sometimes wonder why there's someone I meet and I just don't click. And they're the same. It's like, who do you gravitate to in the room that you just think, wow, I've got to speak to that person. And there's this kind of connection and it can be to things. It can be to jobs, it can be to a home, you know, if your job, if you're home hunting, it's really that thing that appeals to you, that thing that you want, that thing that you create, it's a bit like incorporating, some people use vision boards.

Renata:                I have one in front of me. I have two, the other one fell off, and I haven't been able to glue it back on the wall, but I'm a big fan of vision boards.

Susan:                   Yeah. And I think it really used about, in a sense that word manifesting, what do I want for myself? What is my immediate plan? What's my six month plan, my 12 month plan and beyond, and working on what that trajectory looks like and working on what that, the roadmap to that looks like. And I think it's great to have dreams, but you've got to set goals in order to realise those dreams and you've got it in your mind visualise and in a sense manifest what you want outcomes to be. Now, I'm also a very pragmatic person and none of those things are going to manifest or happen if the effort and the belief aren't there. Um, and I think the thing that's really helped me in my career has been my great, my tenacity, my, you know, keep going kind of attitude. And I think, you know, we, if you don't have that cultivating more of that is going to help you find that job, get over this, this big obstacle at the moment. I really am a big fan too, of, um, Ryan holiday's book, which is called, ‘The obstacle is the way’, which draws on the stoic philosophy of being able to see the long-term unemployment is the thing that you need to get really objective about in your perspective, and be able to overcome to come out the other side of it too. So that's a really good resource if people are looking for some inspiration and guidance too, from a mindset perspective.

Renata:                I think it's lovely that we're having this chat because from the little that I've learned about you is that, we complement each other from being high-performance coaches. So, you know, you with the wellbeing, and ability to take care of people's body and minds and me giving people strategies and advice and really sort of practical knowledge of how to actually get the job go through what really is a competition. And, you know, if you think about the job Hunter, as a tennis player, I would be that coach that has played tennis before, you know, the Arita Sanchez. That is how I see myself. I was Arita Sanchez, now I'm here coaching you. And you would be that, you know, other supporting part of the team, that's making sure that their nutrition is well done, that they're sleeping well, that they have all the supplements that they need. And yeah, I'm a big fan of all of that. I think that that's really important and, you know, call it hacking. I hack a hell of a loss too. I really liked that.

Susan:                   Yeah. I think, you know, hacking yourself is, you know, what, why wouldn't you do it? Know why wouldn't you want to find that the best way to get your performance, your productivity, you know, your energy, all of those things as optimal as they can be. I don't want to wake up every morning, feeling sluggish and tired and getting snooze and, or needing an alarm in the first place. I'm a real go getter. So my mornings are packed with a two hour morning routine, usually between six and 8am. Sometimes it's five.

Renata:                Oh, let's go through your routine before we end this, please share.

Susan:                   Well, it makes such a big difference to your state and it sets you up for a really great day or, you know, a mediocre day.

Renata:                So you go through a very, no, I want to know, tell me, what do you do? You wake up…

Susan:                   I'm a really, really big fan of morning routines. And I think the evening routine is as important because it has a big role to play in how you're going to feel in the morning. So I try to get up at five, which is a bit easier at the moment, because we’re just about to launch into daylight savings in Melbourne. So I'm hearing the birds chirping. And what I do is while I'm still in bed, I beditate, so that's my version of meditation. I'm still lying flat on my back, but I just love that little window of being sort of semi-conscious. So you're not quite awake. You're not quite asleep. It's just that little period of time. And so many amazing ideas happen for me then, and then I will meditate and then I will journal and I just have a booklet. Doesn't have to be structured. It's like the morning pages. I just write whatever is coming into my consciousness after meditation. So meditate for about 20 minutes, journal for about 10 or 15 minutes. And then I get up and often I'm just wearing my yoga to bed. So I'm ready to go. I have no excuses, but to do a home yoga routine. So I'm a really big fan of yoga with Adrian.

Renata:                I was going to say, yeah, I love her. I think I’m one of her first few fans, I've been following her for years.

Susan:                   Yeah, me too. Years ago when my kids were really little and they would jump all over me, like little monkeys while I was trying to do everything. And I think she had about a million subscribers then and now she’s like 8.5 million.

Renata:                It got to a point where I felt like I really need to send her some money this Christmas. But at the time she wasn't making anything. Now she has a Kajabi website and she sells stuff and all of that. And then she signed up with Adidas, and I was so happy for her. And she was wearing Adidas. You can tell that many of her older videos she's wearing Adidas and I'm like, yes, finally somebody’s sponsoring the superstar.

Susan:                   She’s just so generous of spirit. So many videos for all levels.

Renata:                She’s an inspiration to me. I mean, like when Andrea, my husband says, you sure you want to be giving so much information away for free with this podcast, I'm like, yes, I am.

Susan:                   And I think the way to do it. Yeah. Be in service, share the love. I love her because she's so generous of spirit too and her stuff's just really accessible, which is what you want. Yeah.

Renata:                So you do yoga. And then you do a podcast with me.

Susan:                   And then I get up and I try and write, you know, my kids are sort of an age now where they kind of sort themselves out, you know, it's lots of kisses and how has your sleep and all that sort of stuff. But they do their own breakfast and get themselves sorted. So I'm trying to write my book. I blog most weeks, so often the morning is really very much harnessing that big cortisol awakening response that we've got, which really peaks at about an hour and a half after we wake. And it's the tone of the day. That is just great for your creative thinking and just getting all the ideas out and on paper. So that's really good. And then I don't have meetings before 10:00 AM. So I'm just very protective of that time. After 10 I'm there for everyone and anyone and I strategically check emails after around 11. And then I shut off until about three in the afternoon. I'll check again. It's a really managing input, really managing energy across the day, and I don't have my caffeine until I've been awake for a good couple of hours as well, and really harness that caffeine too. So yeah, the mornings I just love. And if I'm not doing yoga, I'm often walking my dog and listening to a podcast just to do some learning and getting some inspiration as well. So, but mostly it's yoga and my husband walking the dog at the moment.

Renata:                Oh good. Oh, it's good to hear how you do your… I'm always curious about what people do and get up. You mentioned the sleep routine. I'm very pedantic about that because of my sleeping issues.

Susan:                   Yeah you should be very particular about your sleep.

Renata:                I am very particular, but I try not to be overly anxious about it, but sometimes I do get anxious and I've been married forever for, it seems like forever, especially during COVID, but my husband has no issues with sleep. He will just drop dead basically. And he doesn't have any problems with lighting as well. So he sometimes forgets that I'm, you know, so pedantic and he will switch the lights on. I'm like, ‘Don’t so that. You’ve been married with me for how long you cannot switch on the lights like this’. You know, I just hate blights. You know, I really do at night it has to be very low light.

Susan:                   Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, if you can see your hand in the dark, that's too much light and the melatonin levels, the sleep hormone levels don't get high enough. So that's a really important thing out. Block out blinds are fantastic.

Renata:                Ok, alright. I’ve learned my lesson now, Susan, thank you. So we will need to book a time so I can come and see you proper as a client and not try to get free advice from you through podcasting. That's not right. Thank you so much for joining us. I'm sure it will be a great episode for everyone listening. Thank you.

Susan:                   Thank you for having me.

Renata:                No problem.

 

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