Transcript 111. Portfolio Career: An Alternative Path to C-Level Jobs - With Julia Cookson.

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[00:00:00] But it enabled me to balance my executive role with family and flex my muscle outside of the HR specialization. And I think that's really important because you get really pigeonholed quite quickly. If you're a subject matter expert and a not for profit is a brilliant plan. To start to flex your muscle into other parts of the business.

hi, I'm Renata Bernarde and this is the job hunting podcast, where I interview experts and professionals in discuss issues that are important for job hunters and those who are working to advance their careers. So make sure that you subscribe and follow and let's dive right in.

by telling the listeners about your career story and what led you to eventually be [00:01:00] an entering executive? Oh, I'm happy to, I'm happy to. So it's a wandering story. In thinking about the science really think I've got two trays that have been there from the beginning and they, my strengths and I've just applied to them, whether I've consciously done it or not.

So my key strengths as a person now that I'm really imaginative and I'm actually quite independent. And so in the interim. I think the strengths come to play, but back in the starch, I was going to be an artist. I was going to be a studio artist. I wasn't going to be an executor. Wow. Very big change about my entire family are actually quite creative.

You know, they're musicians or writers or what have you. So then I was good at art. So that's what. Concentrated on and wanted to go and do that when I left school, but I didn't, I went off and I went to university and, followed the advice of my academic father, do a broad based undergraduate degree and everything that you want to be, , [00:02:00] interested in and that we'll see you through and then, you know, concentrate on something and you post square views.

So I did. That's great advice. I think it is. I think it's really smart advice for young people today. So many as the degrees are really vocational. learning about life and the world and wondering about stuff. So I did a bachelor's in psychology. That was my start. And then and then did a foray into law and realized when I was emotional, the way through my law degree.

And most of the ways through my psych degree that actually I did want to be a lawyer, so I gave it away. But some of the things that had happened across that time, uh, that I know that I'm really good at design. And so I see passions and I see trends. I have a good sense of proportion and putting things together and sort of new and different ways, which comes from the art background.

I say, and I also recognized very early on, even as a small child, that I also a natural leader. [00:03:00] So I was central to the. The one at the middle of the mischief and that sort of continued on. Um, and, and I guess the other thing that has helped with my career is that my parents traveled internationally every two years.

So I've got very good at arriving somewhere, fishing in very fast and then leaving. Um, once I am quite independent. So if we, if we then progress into where in my career, which I entered the workforce, I'm going to say was 1993. It was towards the end of a major economic downturn. And I was really lucky to get a contract with a science business, to, to put in a new performance-based pay system.

But what was bright about that part from the people? They were amazing. I actually got to work with some really foundational men in my career in that they sponsored me. In my formative years, a guy called John Palmer. He was the general manager in [00:04:00] Latin Q research and New Zealand, as it was, then it's not now a guy called Gary Dayak and they both decided that they were going to teach me everything that they knew about strategic management.

And they really nurtured me and were formative in getting me. Where I met a CEO called John Bohm fault, recognize that I had some ability and the three of them sent me on my path really did gives me confidence in my self and gave me opportunity to work on. Leverage my strengths and gave me some good counsel.

So I ended up in Australia. John Bartels was the CEO at AMI insurance and in Christchurch, which now of course it no longer exists, which is unfortunate, but he was an Australian. So encouraged me here. And I came here in 1999. Yeah, yeah, yeah. A bit of a sink around and decided that Melbourne was probably the most exciting city for somebody who [00:05:00] likes art and culture and had traveled.

And I'd have to say the number of immigrants in Melbourne really attracted me. It was like the world had come to me instead of having to travel everywhere. And I worked for a company called Norwich union. I was in an HR role. So my profession is HR management. That's my specialization. And I guess most of the time I had looked at roles that were navigating business transformation and change.

So I specifically looked for that when I arrived in Melbourne, um, anything that was, um, going to be disruptive, complex law involving lots of business change. That's where I wanted to play. I guess the disruption to my career, which had been going in a linear path happened in Norwich union because I found out I was pregnant two years after arriving here was my first child.

And back in the day they decided I wasn't taking my [00:06:00] career serious. Oh, wow. I should buy employment for the reasons of pregnancy. Wow. Really good. They do that back in 2000. No, no you couldn't. But lots of people did. I was one of several women affected by that back then in the company. So it was just going on like that, but it didn't mean that I was able to really think about how I could balance.

Um, working as well as having the children and started thinking about contracting and consulting. And that's sort of led on a journey that was experimental, but actually it's got me everywhere that I've gone now. Didn't know it at the time. It was a bit of panic, but it's worked out quite well in that we, we track on a little bit further and I got the opportunity to work as an exec.

And I, um, medical research company in genomic sequencing, which of course is really important now. [00:07:00] And that enabled me to really balance, um, working. Uh, it was a part-time exec role because it was a small, not for profit, but it enabled me to balance my executive role with family and flex my muscle outside of the HR specialization.

And I think that's really important because you get really pigeonholed. Quite quickly, if you're a subject matter expert and a, not for profit is a brilliant place to start to flex your muscle into other parts of the business. Because the budgets, uh, you know, not quietens because they are in the for-profit sector, but you actually have to be really commercial in a not-for-profit.

You have to be really good at it. So I got involved in lots of different things, including a business review, and that business started very fast because it was hugely disrupted by next gen sequencing coming on new technology. And that company was the first house. [00:08:00] Technology. So we were having massive growth rate, which is actually a really hard strategically position to be in because you've got all these options and ambiguity and uncertainty, it's much easier for businesses struggling because there's only one thing to focus on.

So massive growth. That's all over the place. So major project and all the moving parts. Yeah. So for me, that was a foundational role. Because I learned that one of the things that I'm really stationed to and now look for is complex sectors where the problems are really ambiguous and there's heaps of disruption.

And really look for that because I know that I'm good in that space. And it goes back to that whole pattern design independence. Yes. I love that. You're a very visual person and I am too. I've done this character strengths test. I would recommend everyone can do it. It's free. It's [00:09:00] online. And I think it's my first or second is appreciation of art and beauty.

And I was raised by a musician. So I get what you mean. I think it does. In fact, I didn't realize it until I was much older. How much of my mother, I heading me, you know, that sort of creativity, imaginative and stand that. Did you look back and then realize you had been an entering executive all along?

Because I remember going to watermark and doing consulting for them and they, you may have participated in one of these sessions that they do their watermark being, you know, The experts in entering management brokerage. So they find people like you opportunities, right? And they sit down, they do this information sessions to explain to people what entering management is.

And half the time people say. Oh, I've been doing that all along. I didn't know there was a name for it. Is that something that you realized afterwards or did you do it as strategically and said, no, I want [00:10:00] short-term opportunities. I want to have more flexibility to raise my child because that was way back.

So I'm very used, you know, curious to know what the strategy was for. Well, I would say yes and no. I would say that if I look back now and I was talking to my younger self bearing in mind that instrument Mexican wasn't really known as a thing. I would say you're naturally inclined to that, but I was trying to find my niche if I would describe myself.

Now, if I was to describe myself as an executive, I'm a, B, I like to have an issue. But I'm trying to solve. And I, and I was struggling, you know, I have always liked to work with a visionary CEO and board wanting to look at things differently. So I've become, uh, a bit of a conviction executive, I think, in my older age.

And so actually the interim space allows you to do that because. I guess the entrance [00:11:00] space they're hiring you for what you know, to solve a problem for a period of time. It's not for everyone. It's not, it's not a job that everyone can handle. I think there are some specific things that make you more inclined to what's the not, and I think you have to start, you have to be at peace with uncertainty and you have to be able to cope with the volatility.

You know, sometimes you'll be so, so busy that you won't even know how you're going to get through it all. Especially given that I have a portfolio career. So if things seems to come at once and it can be faced and famine, and there'll be other times where you wonder if you'll ever going to work in, oh my God.

So I guess I've got some coping mechanisms for that and the most important one and the most important tip. If you're thinking about doing this is that you have at least six months worth of household expenses in a bank has a float. I've got six months of cost of living coverage and that takes the immediate stress away.

Excellent. [00:12:00] That's the right way of thinking about it, even, I think if you're fully employed, permanently in a very cyclical sector, like mining, for example, which is very common in Australia, but who knew other sectors like now tourism, who knows when tourism. Uh, there are so many other sectors. And I think the pandemic has really opened our eyes to the, the importance of having that runway, that saving and you know, there.

And I think it's actually really solid, straight. Even if you're in an executive career, because you know, there's so many executives that find themselves the victim of restructure and restructuring and all sorts, and suddenly you're out of the job and it takes a long time to get another one. I guess the other thing that I would say about my approach to interim existing that is different perhaps than what a lot of people here is that I don't consider it to be an in-between gig thing or, um, Behavior, you know, where you're trying to, you know, [00:13:00] find something else to do.

I've always developed it as a really purposeful thing for my career. So from, from the get-go from back in the day, when I was working in my first job, those three men said to me, you're going to be a CEO one. That's what you're going to be. And I, and I, and they explained why, and it sorta made sense. So from 1995 onwards, that's what I've been working towards.

And as an HR executives, it's not common. I mean, most CEOs CFOs, I don't think there should be. And I particularly don't, they should be now. Um, once we've seen what's happened with colleagues and I think that having an understanding of human behavior and people and systems and how an organization all fits together is just crucial rather than just concentrating on the numbers.

I guess, if you, for me, the, in the interim executive stream and my portfolio is really serving [00:14:00] a very deliberate purpose and the very deliberate purpose that it provides me. Buying a new sectors, meeting new people, working on new problems, because those are all transferable bits of knowledge that goes somewhere else.

You're really building a portfolio, including a true portfolio it's happening in stages over years. But what it also allows to have happen is that you, you know, I, I deliberately move. I do maybe two or three years in an interim space, and then I move across and I go into a permanent. For a period of, you know, four or five years or something like that, because it's a step change.

You can't, you know, for me, it's, it's important to have the curiosity and the variety of the intern role, but then to go and consolidate that for a period of time and a permanent job is really important. And I think the value of working with the brokers, like the watermarks of the world is that if you share that with them, they enable that sort of approach to help.

So they know what my [00:15:00] career plan is, and they are looking for opportunities for me to fulfill it. Now as an HR executive, I needed to close some gaps and the gaps that I needed to close were around the financials and the risk and all the things that a CFO does that I wasn't getting access to. And so that's when I started working towards getting my directorships on boards and deliberately, deliberately got onto finance and order.

Yes. Finance and audit, taking it out. Those are portfolio, correct. Well, close the skill gap and work with, you know, a lot of the people who are on sitting on finance in order. Obviously if those, so it's putting along side one and saying, well, can you explain the balance sheets and the P and L's and the, you know, what am I looking at here?

How does it fit into a funding model? So post 2006, where I was in the medical research side, I knew that I [00:16:00] loved the not-for-profit space. And I knew that I liked health, not just acute health. So the first directorship I had was on a regional hospital board and working in medical research that opened my eyes to the broader impact of the health sector.

And of course it's a really big, important sector now. Boss a government board does like a health board is that they have excellent governance education and they're very, very supportive for smaller, lower risk to directors. So, and they often advocate so women as well. So you get a really good grounding, a really solid grounding.

That's a good stuff. I love all of that. And I think this will be so good for others to hear because so many people have, first of all, they have no idea that you can have a career like that, but also people have this old fashioned view of having a linear career when sideways to the top is getting such a great strategy and you're using it so well.

How do you get those opportunities? You know, the [00:17:00] intern management jobs and all that. Income generating opportunities to fill out a time and showcase your ex extremities? Well, I think that's a comp a couple of ways. Obviously I have close working relationships with the brokers, automatic, obviously as one.

You know, there's also other, um, excellent brokers. I can mirror partners and official leadership in Brooklyn consulting in Melbourne. Now I mentioned them only because most of the players inside those businesses have worked together before in their career history. And so, because they know each other and they all know me, they look out for me for all sorts of opportunities.

Cause you don't know where a client's going to like. And so it's a very cooperative space. It's a very con um, but you have to treat those people that are looking out for you with respect as well. You know, you have to give back to them as much as they giving to you. And I think that that being genuine with your connection.[00:18:00] 

It's the other way that I get leads and, and work. So the thing I would say is, um, getting back to my point about intermix, they could, it's not a part-time job. I am a business, you know, view myself as a business and I have various strains of revenue, but I rely on my connections and, and the work that I deliver to get leads.

Um, referrals and pieces like that. I don't actively network patients cause I'm just not really inclined to it. But what I do do is I introduce people that I know to each other. So if I know if I know you Renata and I know what you do, and I know somebody else who might benefit from knowing you or the other way around, then I'll introduce you to, to them.

And that starts to happen back. And I also deliberately, it's not a marketing thing. It might be social, but I'll do. Deliberately hosts social event, like, you know, a lunch or dinner, or I was sort of a soiree or something like that and get people I know together [00:19:00] who've might never met, but they do mate.

And then I see the relationship flourish into business or, or, or a friendship or all of the above. And that's what I do. Um, I'm a bit of a wallflower, so I actually really enjoy watching everybody, you know, the energy develop in the room, but because of that, it comes back. And I think that those. Why is that I get work.

People like working with me and I liked working with them and the community grows. I think the other thing I do is I use social media. Now. I'm not a rabid self promoter on social media, but I do. If I've got something I'm interested in, I want to talk about, or it's an area that, you know, a conference I'm sharing or presenting it on.

I'll talk about it as LinkedIn or Twitter or. Oh, I did use Twitter, but I, um, prefer LinkedIn. Um, yeah, I, I, and I, and I will see to expand reach. I'm really careful not to just accept if you know, like, I don't want to accept everybody. They've got to [00:20:00] be connected to me somehow. So it's a sort of strategic, curated group.

It validates who I am. It showcases what I think about things and brand me. So it goes to that whole authenticity. Yeah. Yeah. So I guess if you have a passion or an interest or a subject matter expertise, and you can contribute that out, then use LinkedIn, but I think you have to be really focused and you have to have a value proposition for the space.

You have to know who, what it is that defines you. What's your difference on, oh, you know, your. We talking about this to people all the time, but what value do I bring? And that's what I talk about on LinkedIn. I think you have to sort of promote yourself a bit in that space, in that you have to be regular.

Talk about your ideas regularly. Yes. That's a great that's exactly what. So thank you for helping us try to do [00:21:00] that. I wouldn't have been that aware in an executive role because the thing is a few, if you, and this is why I do hop between interim and full-time work well, permanent work, I should say, because I think that it opens you up to new ideas and how, how to think of yourself differently.

It keeps you on your toes. And I, and I liked that. I liked to be pushed into uncertainty and unknown and uncomfortable, probably the best thing. And, you know, you are in this for the long run and you know that some opportunities take a lot of time to come to fruition. So having that regular ongoing way of modus operandi way of operating with your network, with your connections, your presence on in games certainly pays off over time.

Let me ask you about advisory because he, when I sent you the brief, you said, oh, let's talk about advisory. I'd like you to explain what it, what it is and how it works for you. So let me [00:22:00] start by expanding or being clear about my portfolio, because that will show the strains with cooked a lot about interim exec.

So that's one line and then the directorships are another line. And why director ships? Because they give you corporate governance. I teach you about how to interact with the board and what's, what are the emerging trends in the sector and, um, really good due diligence and some of the commercial realities of, you know, why boards and organizations have to do what they do.

So rounding. Yes. To be an excellent general manager, really great CEO. You need to have the executive side, you need to have the direct side. This has bearing in mind that when I end my days, I'll be a director. That was the plan. And then in COVID. I discovered advisory work. How did you discover it? Did they come to you or did you find them on the other side?

It was fortuitous because it happened in the same week. You know how sometimes you get the [00:23:00] universal lines and you get the message right. Between the eyes that you haven't really picked up until it hits you. Yeah. So I. Uh, where there was this thing called advisor, but like many people, I thought they were accountants and lawyers that had set themselves up on the side, taking advice to businesses like small business owners and things.

And then I discovered a wonderful company called the advisory board center and I've introduced them to automatic and vice versa because the advisory space for a long time, hasn't been fantastically mature. So the quality of the advisor in the advisor space, it's variable and what has been going on for some time.

And this is what I became aware of is that there's been a best practice framework developing to improve the standards. So it's, uh, it's, it's now qualification a bit like Uriah. But for now, the advisory space is quite different to the governance space. [00:24:00] You are not a director, so you're not covered by fiduciary duties.

You're not making decisions for the business. You're using your subject matter expertise to provide options. The business thing decides what to do with, um, it's an exciting space because a lot of the advisors in the network I am part of are actually really super clever people. Like they might've established their own business and now are helping others do it, or they've been, or their consultants or their executives, or, you know, a number of things, but they're just supportive.

And so. But the, I think in the advisory space, you actually have to focus again, what's the size of the business that you want to play in? Is it the startup? Is it the growing, you know, up to sort of that there are natural breaks, you know, there's a startup up to about 10 million. There's a 10 to 30. Is it 30 to 50?

Is it 50 to a hundred plus million turnover? I [00:25:00] am really different names. And what I, um, have been doing as an HR practitioner, Well, all through my career is actually navigating business maturity, you know, taking a business from, um, I sit in songs, exploiting disruption in a market to, to, to change the business, to something new and then, um, moving it forward.

So when I, when I was introduced to. I suppose the more structured wise thinking about advisory WIC. Oh my goodness. I've been doing this all the time in a different way. Okay. And what is the engagement like? Julia? Is it like a, you an advisor as a retainer or is it like a pointing time you step in. And quickly advise and step out.

I'm trying to understand during advisory and entering in consulting. Oh look, it's well, consulting is about providing a solution and [00:26:00] being paid for that work. What you're doing, um, what you're doing as an advisor is understanding. So I will do an assessment with the, with the owner of the organization. To isolate down what the need is.

So oftentimes they can't articulate well, they can or don't, or the articulation of the, of the challenge or the problem is not necessarily all that clear. So we refined that down towards. The spec actually is the scope and scale of the piece of work. It might be a project which will require a group of advisors for a specific period of time.

You know, that's to introduce a new product to market or something. There'll be a specific thing. That's a growing area, or it might be around scaling a business into a new market or a new site. That can take, you know, six months to a year to two years class. It really depends. But the notion [00:27:00] of an advisory board, if you like, or advisory space, is that you are there for a finite period of time and you're working, um, not every day you might be working with.

One day a week, one day a month. So you need to create a pipeline of work for yourself. Oh, I love it. I can save like, as a former CEO, I would have loved to engage advisors because there's a cost benefit to it. You add more brainpower very quickly. Um, and that brainpower is so important when you're working.

You know, I was in a small organization that had very big ambitions and very proud. I say very prestigious stakeholders as a state government, federal government. So it's very hard to be in a micro niche organization, working with. Huge stakeholders that are invested in you, you know, that created you in the first place because the foundation I worked for, so that advisory [00:28:00] seems like a dream come true.

I wish I knew about it back then, the currency, you know, about it in case she needs it. But you know, I, I, I love that. And do you find that, do you need to educate the market that this opportunity. Oh there and, and ready for action or is there a market for it already? Both. So it's a fairly new way. It's.

It's not new. You know, you've had, um, lawyers and accountants and people giving advice to businesses, um, in their professional capacity for a long time. What is new is this notion of bringing, uh, an advisory group together. And I, and I, I utilize, uh, um, uh, the, an abridgment of a governance framework to do that, so that you've got a charter, you've got terms of reference.

You're not a shadow director. Right. You are, you know, you are giving advice to a business around a particular thing. It's really important, um, to [00:29:00] educate the market about what the potential for the advisory spaces, because it is quite an emerging, particularly an emerging market. If you will. Corporatized boards as well.

So let's take the aged care space cause I've worked in that space. Aged care as a sector has got a lot of challenges. If you were sitting on a corporatized board of an aged care organization right now, it can be overwhelming to know what to do. Um, if you hire an advisory board, which is much, much cheaper and more cost effective, by the way than consumption.

If you, if you engage an advisory board to work on some options, Strategic options for you. Um, even if it's around, you know, how do you implement some of the new aged care standards like standard eight, which is around governance and culture is really complicated. Transfer down and business. And back up, if you engage an advisory board to inform or give some, um, ideas to the, to the corporatized [00:30:00] board, then that's going to fast track change a lot quicker than if you're trying to do it all yourself.

So clients that I've worked with in this space will quite quickly get at least a 30% jump on, on turnover. Uh, chase their strategic objectives much faster in an, in a lot more controlled. So it's really effective. There's some, um, there's some very solid data on it now, but it is, it is a growing. It is definitely a growing space then in the same way.

So the interim executive is maturing as a, as a career option now. Oh. And I love that we have all these options to consider because I think we need them at several points of our careers. And like you said, before, it does this doesn't suit everyone. I love how you explained it. As, you know, you are a business and, you know, doing that and in a very income generating way, like thinking [00:31:00] about your strategic planning and what you're moving into.

I am dying to ask you what's next for you. But before I ask that, I'd love to know knowing what you know now and how the market has matured for these type of portfolio career executives. What advice would you give somebody that believes that they were ready to embrace it? Well, I think if you believe that you're ready to embrace it, it's about just jumping in.

Um, because it doesn't matter if it doesn't work, you know, it's not going to be the end of the world. If you turn around and go the system to me, or I haven't quite got the personal staff to make that work, that's fine because that's part of learning about yourself. So I think you need to be very, very committed to.

And view yourself as a business and keep a lot of plates spinning. And if you enjoy that and get energy from it, it's the most liberating thing that you can do. But I think that you also, oh, the other thing that's [00:32:00] really important as it suits women, interim executive and advisory work really suits women, particularly executives for women because.

All the gender stuff that you have to put up with you are hired for your ability and your, um, what you know, and what you can do in the time and off you go, you're not hired for any of the things. And so you can cut through all of that really fast. Um, it's very interesting. It's really fascinating. Like I have not experienced it, you know, I, uh, I've, I've occupied both spaces where I've been an executor, an executive women and an all male executive and, and.

And, you know, really sort of like most women struggled to get my voice heard that you will not experience in the exact spot in the instrument mix. They can advise response if you do, it will be an, a, it will be an anonymous. Yeah, that's so interesting when you say tested out and if it doesn't work, it doesn't matter.

[00:33:00] Go back to, you know, full-time executive roles and that will be fine. How long do you think you need to test it out? Because it takes a while for you to mature in that space to get on top of mind of let's say the brokers. Do you think that there is a timeframe or how would you judge when it's time to.

Yeah. So the interim assignments are normally three to six months at a time. Sometimes they'll go longer because you know, life happens from businesses, but normally they're three to six months. So I think that you would know within three to six months, whether this is something that you want to then go and do a second assignment or.

Cool at your probationary period on yourself. I personally don't view the interim Miksic stream in my portfolio as sometimes thing to do. I want to be working 11 months of a year, not three to six months. Some people that suits them fine, but I'm not at the end of days. [00:34:00] And for me, the other thing too, is that I raised my children on my own.

And so I need to earn across and cover. So some of that is about being practical and realistic, but I don't particularly want to one down I'm using this as a career. Development. Um, it's very strategic. And I think that if you, you, you will enter it for one of two reasons either you're doing it because you're doing what I'm doing or you're doing it because, um, you're not ready to retire or you want to, um, experiment with something.

And that's fine. I, I think you'll know quite fast, whether you like going into a business. Having to achieve outcomes. Fast, get to know people fast. Can you make an impact? Not everyone can arrive as a stranger, get people around them really fast and then keep working. It has to suit your personality. Right.

Yeah, it has to suit your personality. And, um, I would die a [00:35:00] million deaths if I was in the other space where I had a long slow build, I couldn't survive that. So you've got to know that about yourself going in. Sometimes the only reason you'll know that it's when you try. Yeah. So in terms of your career progression now, uh, having done this, built this great expertise and portfolio over time, do you see yourself moving towards that CEO role in the future?

Yes. Your amazing mentors told you. So

I've been blazing so many years to make those phone calls and go. I did it. Um, yeah, look, I think so. And that's what I'm actively looking to do now. I think COVID has given me a gift in a way in that all of that time in community health community services and I'm in acute health sector is actually lining up really well to be able to address all the challenges of that host our pandemic.

So yes, I would like to spend, [00:36:00] um, my next, you know, My next, say five to eight years in one or two CEO roles, because, um, the logic of that will be that post that time. Then I'm going back into court film. Yeah. At the same time, I'm not giving up my advisory and I'm not giving up my directorship. So it's like replacing an unsure music stream with permanent work for, but, but keeping the other things going.

And the reason I would want to do that is because of the access to networks and new ways of thinking and junk sectors. It goes back to that way. We started about that sense of design and proportion. You get, you get ideas and stimulation from another sector, and then you can go, oh, look at that. I can apply that in this state.

It just needs some tinkering around the, of. Oh, I love how you redesign things by, you know, you repurpose something from somewhere [00:37:00] else and put it into a new way. We'll put different things together in a new way. And there were Mo there's a new outfit. Yes, that's absolutely right. And it keeps away much more connected.

And I find that that we've, uh, jobs and advisory roles, board roles is much better. Yeah. Good now by employees. So they know that if they want to hire great talent, they, the talent will come with some strings attached and they'll be fine with it because there was a time back in the day. You may remember this, you would have to resign from everything.

I don't think that happens anymore. It depends. Of course, if it's a government role or something, it may require you because of conflict that there no reason. No, no. And you do have to be a little bit conscious. Um, well, not a little bit. You have to be very conscious of managing conflicts and, um, and also, you know, in the advisory space, you need to be very aware of corporate governance.

So you don't become the shadow director. Um, you know, [00:38:00] this is not something that you do. If, if this is the first time you're going into direct ships or advisory space, you need to get some help so that you don't end up in a bit of a mess. But otherwise, I look, I do think that this is what we need to move away from is that perception that mist, that people that work like this, um, can't hold down a permanent.

Yeah, there's something wrong with their background or whatever, you know, negative stuff. And also people, when you go and see them, you know, as if you're interviewing for an interim exec job, you know, people say, well, how long were you doing this before? You know, for, there are some stereotypes that we're moving away from and actively moving away from.

But I think that that's just going to take some time and depending on. Um, really shifted people's views about work and about time [00:39:00] value. Yeah, because my only commodity that I'm on trading is time. I think it's a great, um, look, as I say, it suits me really well. It is not for everybody. I don't know, but that's why this episode is fantastic because people can listen to it and understand what it really means to be a portfolio.

Is. And I think you feel much for making the time to share your experience and be so Frank and open about it. He gave so many good recommendations and advice, and I'm sure I'm going to get lots of feedback about this episode and I'll let you know when I do, because people often email me to say, yo, I love this one and you do more, you know, and I think that, um, they have been asking for more information about entering and what it is, you know, I'm very surprised that it even makes.

So I'm so glad that we're doing this every scanned. Thank you. Pleasure. And, um, if you have clients that want to talk to [00:40:00] me about my in more detail about the experience and the nuts and bolts of it, then I'm really happy to do that. The only way I'll leave a link to you on LinkedIn. Thank you so much.

Once again, it's a pleasure. Lovely to see you.