Transcript #8: Positive Redundancy Interview with Alistair Freeman

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Renata:                In November 2019 Allister Freeman wrote a post on his LinkedIn profile announcing he was starting a new job after being made redundant from the National Australia Bank or NAB. Alastair had been with NAB for over 20 years. In fact, Napa was his first and only employer since he graduated. You see many times I have told potential clients that they should not shy away from job hunting only because they have been with an organization for a long time. Many times people think that they need to go back to steady and reskilled things. They feel disconnected from the job market, but Allister didn't feel like that. If that is how you feel. However, I strongly encourage you to listen to this podcast in his LinkedIn post. Alister goes on to describe his experience, job hunting. He started by thanking everyone that helped him and finished off by offering to pay it forward.

Renata:                His post was sent to me by one of our listeners and I loved it. Shout out to Paul. Thank you, Paul, so much for sending me Allister's LinkedIn post. Alister was not a connection of mining fact. He was not a pulse connection either, but it shows the power of LinkedIn and how much people were interested in finding out more about his story which went viral in the post. Allister described the rejections he received, the ghosting he got from some recruiters but also pointed out the power of networking and that it had been fun for him to reconnect with great relationships. He had lost that truth over time. It is rare for someone to share redundancy stories so I didn't think twice and I immediately contacted Allister and invited him to be interviewed for this podcast and I'm happy that he agreed because he had so much more to say and a few surprises that I really enjoyed hearing about as well.

Renata:                So I hope that you will enjoy it too. Hi, I'm Renata Bernardi and today I have a very sore throat so please bear with me. This is the job hunting podcast where I help you nail the UNX job and have the career that you want. If this is the type of content for you and you're currently on the market looking for a new job. If you are keen to get a new job in the near future or if you want tips on how to advance and change careers, make sure you subscribe by clicking on the subscribe buttons. Subscribe button on iTunes or Spotify. There is a button there somewhere in your podcast app and if you subscribe, you will get the weekly notifications. The episode notes for this podcast will including formation on where to find me, which is basically everywhere. But I hang out more on my Facebook page, Renata Bonati and on Instagram.

Renata:                Yes, I am on LinkedIn of course, and you can connect with me there, but I don't post much about job hunting on LinkedIn because I don't want you discussing your change of job on LinkedIn. I don't recommend that. So that's why I don't post it there. So I invite you to ask her why I'm on this podcast, private Facebook group, which has the same name, the job hunting podcast. So if you Google it on, sorry, if you search for it on Facebook, you will find it very easily. The episode notes also have links to additional content that I promise while I'm talking about things I usually say, Oh, there's a link to this or point you towards this direction and you will find it in the episode notes. It also links to my website and I strongly recommend that you connect with me by signing up to my weekly newsletters.

Renata:                If you sign up to my weekly newsletters, you will get this new podcast episode on your inbox every week, on my website. You can also find out more about the work that I do. You can book a private consultation if meet with me if you want. If you are looking to discuss your job hunting or career during a private online session, I'd love to talk to you. But a more cost-effective way would be possibly to wait a couple of weeks until I launch the job hunting made simple on course. And that will be, a way of helping job hunters nail their new job in a more cost-effective way for the course may be already alive in the registrations could be open. Now let's jump back into the topic of the day. We're S we're going to sit and listen to Alistair's interview. But first I want you to note this Alice, this story of redundancy may be different from yours if you are going through, redundancy at the time of listening, it could be different, right?

Renata:                But there are still many lessons to be learned here. For example, the way that Allister uses the disruption of the redundancy to reevaluate his lifestyle and where he wanted to live, to always be open to new sectors and new opportunities at times like this. And to have a positive mindset while job hunting because it is a very stressful experience even for somebody very positive like Allister and it's to keep that positivity. And that nice frame of mind. And also do you have a good support system? I hope that this podcast can be part of your support system as well as my weekly newsletter and the opportunity to interact with the Facebook page and the private group. All of these things can really help keep you motivated and accountable. So if you're wondering how Ellis had dealt with his redundancy, where he is now and what he learned in the process, listen up at the end of the interview, I will give you a link to an email template that I have used personally and I have given to clients to help them connect with headhunters and recruiters that they don't know. So this is kind of cold calling but by email. I think it's important to find great recruiters that are experts in your field or sector or the field and sector that you want to move into and introduce yourself. So this template may hopefully help you, help you now or in the future, tip it for you and use it when you need it. You will understand why I wanted to share this template with you. Once you hear Alice this story, it will make more sense. So stay tuned and, we will talk again afterwards.

Renata                 So I am going to start by congratulating you on getting your new job. Congratulations Alistair. I'm so happy for you. Can you tell us a little bit about where you're going and what you're going to do?

Alistair:                Yeah, so it's very new for me. So I'm moving into a change manager role with a not for profit. I'm opening those [inaudible]. So having been in finance for well over 25 years, it's a complete yeah. Oh, I see you called to the 190, if two very different industries. So yeah, really when I, when I've gone by backgrounds, I'll go was my redundant. Matam at NAB. And that was great and they were a great employer to me and everything else. But, yeah, I've got my redundancy and, and it's interesting as you, when you get to that point of having a redundancy, you yeah. It gives you an opportunity to sit and really think about what's next to where you want to go next. And not for profit was something that was pretty high on my list of where I would like to be. And yeah, change management was something I really enjoyed. Being around and involved in true motto him at NAB and yeah, the opposite of the opportunity to have a positive impact in an organization that's my husband opposes to be impacting society is something that's just a launch beautifully with marijuana to guy ne. So

Renata:                good on you. That's very fortunate. Very fortunate. And was this, was this the first time you were made with them redundant Alistair because you dealt with it so well and I wondering if it's experience or just really savviness from your patch.

Alistair:                So it definitely, the first time I'd been with NAB for 27 years, so I dropped out of uni and dropped into the workforce and dropped into NAB and start at the bottom and work my way through and look over a fantastic employer. 2 million. Yeah, send me email skills through my time at NAB and the redundancy on you was coming. So I think we're, I would suggest that, yeah, on reflection where I was fortunate was that I had knowledge of the redundancy coming, so I was able to, I suppose I was excited about it to be quite frank. It was, I was ready for a change and, but also had the time to process what the change could look like. It wasn't one of those all, you've got four weeks to make it well and up has a bit more time than that to process as fortunate.

Renata:                And I know that NAB offers good outplacement today, offer you a placement and to do, take part of those sort of opportunities.

Alistair:                So it's great. It's actually, again, it's something that I've realized on reflection, just something that NAB did super well. And I was actually talking to my [inaudible] coach yesterday is a bit of a rounding out, finishing up the process if you like. And, certainly, it was evident to me and in fact my volume. It was, it's an interesting thing though, what I said earlier about LinkedIn being such a powerful, I had a message from a, after I put that post up last week, I had that message from someone who wasn't in my network at all asking if I would be happy to speak to someone from his network who had been made redundant in another organization and was finding it hard to sort of find these, Oh Joe, if you like. Yes. And yes, that might be realized. Just how, just how well NAB have set us X employees up for success with the, what they call the breach, which is the process they've set up for people leaving the bank. And that's been all right to me. It certainly gave me focus and gave me structure, to enable a strong process of looking for work, eh, and, and we, they had it I think by outcome I still think I would have a positive outcome cause I'm a fairly positive person. But I do think that the focus and structure, the bridge brought to me and enabled a quicker at come from me than that all would have otherwise had if I was flying solo.

Renata:                Yes. But it's good that you notice that you have that positive attitude because the attitude and the confidence that you bring in those situations can really make a difference. I mean, does this kind of Harvard reset a noteworthy that people have to, if they don't have that dial naturally as a trait, it's good for them to build that up? Well, I do, I personally, I do help with that as well.

Alistair:                I look on the other, I think it's, it's an [inaudible] it's a very texting, aspect of, to look for work. It's sure. Yeah. It's a full-time job looking for a job. Yeah. The volume of, yeah. Knockback the volume of the volume of know the volume of ghosting and all that type of stuff, it can really dainty you and really knock you a Bayer if you don't have yeah. You don't maintain the positive focus and it's very easy to lose that positive focus with the volume of negativity that can come from the volume of applications because it's a, it's a contact sport where although the friend say to me, early on, look, it's a contact sport, just be ready to do a lot of, a lot of the coffees, a lot of the ketchups, a lot of CVS, all of the conversations. And it is, it's just a numbers game.

Renata:                Yes. Yes. And you worked in the job hunting for, for long. Did you start before September? Cause I noticed that you left napping September, is that right? Did you start looking for

Alistair:                no, I left naps with the back end of September. It took a little bit of time to just sort of, chill out and then probably about, eh, I was probably about four weeks as I think about it, of active you, the activities, with a good focus instruction to it. And in that time, there was a lot of, so it was, it wasn't long. I think what I would say is it wasn't long compared to others from what I can understand.

Renata:                No, it wasn't long. It wasn't long. Do you think it's the sector that you're in that there's a high demand for professionals like you?

Alistair:                Well, see it's interesting. So another part to another sidebar I suppose to my, during the year and the arteries that when we found out that all was being made redundant, we made the choice to move from metropolitan Melbourne to the North coast of New South Wales. So I actually, I loved it was a hole because we knew the change was coming, so it was like, we've got, Oh, a change happening with, with work. Well, let me do, we want them like a whole of life change. And it was something we always wanted to do. My wife and I was too get up here and, and we set the plan in the bat to make that happen and [inaudible] so I actually added another layer of complexity to my job search by doing that. So yeah, plan I was to find something R P Hey on the North coast plan B was to commute to either a Sydney or Brisbane, which, well, frankly wouldn't the bank I'm the greatest, but, but you do what you have to do. Right.

Renata:                Well, it's a beautiful part of the world, but now I'm concerned. Does everything okay because the fire is as we speak.

Alistair:                Yeah. We caught, fortunately, were on the coast, we were on the coast, so we bought fortunate. Yeah. But yeah, we certainly were reminded every day of the is with the smoke and whatnot. But yeah, touch wood, we haven't had a directing pipe thing.

Renata:                That's great. And I like what you just told me because people sometimes worry so much about being made redundant when in fact it can allow you the opportunity to make such great, interesting choices in your life and then take a leap [inaudible] postponing. That's I think was the large part for

Alistair:                us was, well we've got the change coming. We know it's coming. Can we just, yeah. Tight as you say, take the leap and trust. But w things will work at Wellforce and, and as I see it as, or the of complexity to the job hunt because the volume of roles up here and not, there's not the same volume of jobs obviously as you get email windows Sydney up all the same token. It also then my main that's, Oh, it was able to be very focused on what I wanted. At the same time as applying for roles here, I was applying for roles in Brisbane and Sydney and the one thing I would say is that the roles in Brisbane and Sydney, there was quite a diverse range of roles I was applying for. Whereas up here, it was very specific and very targeted. So I think the move Wohlstetter LA was the pool of job opportunity and enables you to be very focused. And if you've got a really specific goal in mind, it enables you to really hone in on that because you don't have the spread, if that makes sense.

Renata:                That's interesting. And also the first point that you made in your amazing LinkedIn post, which I will mention when I do the introduction for you, is that you said your network is huge and I'm assuming you didn't have such a huge network where you're now living. Is that correct?

Alistair:                Oh, that's exactly right. So [inaudible] is the the power of the network is huge. Yeah. But absolutely up here. Yeah, I'll lift a very strong Melbourne network. Yeah, zero network, Sydney, Brisbane and both coasts. Yeah, my network there, he wrote up to speak of up here though in saying that in the time up here, they all, the develops good context and actually ended up getting another job in the view. I'll pay for another role purely through network. Well, call me the bet network. Well, I noticed it true or assisted all went through and others went through. The redundancy of the friends I'd spoken to was how many people picked up rolls through. He didn't mock, so they weren't avatars roles. It was through that and that work. It was an opportunity that came purely from having conversations in the law.

Renata:                Yes. Did, did, did you get your role through your network or did you apply, I'm assuming you applied for something since you, new to the region.

Alistair:                This one was applaud for. That's right. But the beautiful thing and the way the network came into play with this was the recruiter was well connected to a couple of my connections. So there was a credibility transfer immediately and the ability to talk to my connections about that recruiter to get an understanding. And yeah, really they talk about six degrees of separation. Right, and LinkedIn shows that so strongly, you, I'd have to look too far to see who's connected to who and that really well, it's a very strong tool for me, to get conversation with the recruiter about this role. And indeed when I was in the interview with the new organization, a couple of the young one of the interview was new. Some people are new. So again, that connection that you can, you can sort of search your on LinkedIn and get an understanding of

Renata:                yes, yes. No, absolutely. And you mentioned the second point you made was rejections and I'm assuming you, you've got quite a few. Were you surprised?

Alistair:                So yes, I was, you sort of, if you have a rate of a roll and you see, well now we don't look too job's on [inaudible] and English in them. Whatever else. I wouldn't look at this. I wouldn't spend as much time looking at the skills as I would looking at the responsibilities. Cause I figure the responsibilities tell you what they want, what the employer wants someone to be able to do. The skills or their version of what schools and needed to do that. But I looked at and said, well actually those responsibilities cannot do those with the skill set I have cause it may not align directly to the skillset they're talking about. So I looked at responsibilities a lot. Oh. And sort of other roles were awful. I make the brief there like the brief day and applied and had conversations with recruiters I suppose.

Alistair:                Well initial process was shooting out, CV and the cover letter and getting there, getting their response and being a little bit again cause I was new to this being a little bit sort of, it's a pros at that. They don't evolve to having a conversation with the recruiters before shooting the CV here at the Saint Thomas shooting the CV. No, no. They've got me shortlisted for a few roles that a CV alone wouldn't have got me shortlisted for. So that was a sort of an evolution of my process that, that worked in saying that it still didn't get me to the table for me interviewing load in, in any of those instances. And that was the hardest part of the thing when I, when I got through to the recruiter and had the conversation and they got a really positive hearing from them and then got shortlisted by them, then go from shortlist to not getting interviewed. That was probably the point in time where I had the day that if you lock a bet, Oh, okay. Away from finance, I need to, what I wanted to get into the project will.

Renata:                okay. Were you, were you applying for roles that, were not finance? So were you already trying to do that career transition into not-for-profit?

Alistair:                Always. Always looking. So not for profit was my, my absolute go, but as a backup always all side looking at roles in yeah. Projects. So transformation roles with, yeah. If it was in banking, well and good. But yeah, really transformation Rose way, my background, the last three years of my time at NAB, so pro, so yeah. The last three years and my talent, they've all been working in transformation. So I've been on the program that the significant transformation within that and landed really successfully. So it was a very positive project. Probably the best. I've been in frontline business bankers, finance and the luck. Yeah, about Tom. They had really, I suppose piqued my interest about transformation and action. Quiet, I'll call a patient in the bed, the transformation process and quality execution, quality delivery. So I was applying for roles in that space.

Renata:                Interesting. So you were really ticking the boxes and still not getting shortlisted and most interestingly you were getting ghosted. Now that happens to my clients a lot as well. So I support people that are going through, recruitment phases, interviews, job searches, and we really align the resumes with [inaudible], candidates back, or a job description, whatever we get our hands on and still we cannot get through to the recruiters. So. Interesting. And I have clients that range from a hundred, 150 K annual to two 50 plus. And even within the two 50 plus where you would think the recruit or the headhunter would, we'll try to connect with to as many good candidates as they can. Nope. No, just pause. It is incredible, isn't it?

Alistair:                It's a fascinating industry. Yeah. On one side of yeah. So they've always thought of is yeah, follow the money. So yeah. Who's paying the bill for the recruiter? It's the hiring company. Actually had this conversation with I an AIX recruiter who you say that it's become a very transactional, sort of a role for a lot of the newer recruiters. That's their view of it. And I can see [inaudible] that I can see that view playing through. I've got to say there were some recruiters who took a lot of time and really were Cincy and I think both into my story. And that's for me, that's, that's the gold, right? These where you get a recruiter who buys into your story and that's that conversation piece, right? But actually having the conversation, if you can get the time for coffee with them, the tone for coffee, just that as a site, just that cause my stories, you can never, everyone's unique person, but I know my story was unique. Transitional was full. So for, for the recruiters, to me it's being able to grab the recruiters or get into the recruiters who, as a side ball your story.

Renata:                I agree. Yeah. And also, I wanted to go into that story a bit further, but can I just say, what I mean when I say some recruiters ghost, isn't it more all recruiters goes to, but there's a range of quality of service I have found and some are really wonderful people that will keep connected with good candidates even when they don't fit the brief of the job that you're applying for. You just missed out by a small margin. They will keep in touch with you, whereas others don't talk to you at all. So, it's a really big range and people just need to know that it's there. But were you comfortable with your redundancy story because some people are uncomfortable with talking about being made redundant?

Alistair:                Well, yeah, I know my clients, some of them really struggle with that. How did you feel? So look all again. I think I was fortunate because I had time to process, in the lead up cause I knew the redundancy was coming for longer than people ordinarily do. So I was fortunate because I was able to process it for a period of time. Just to really get myself ready for it. And those leaving in a really positive way. Okay. I was leaving and I was a transition from my traditional front line people leadership role into the transformation role. I'm on you. The transformation role had an end date because the transformation finished. And I knew I was leaving. I'm in a really having completed a really impactful role so it felt like I was leaving on the hall and the Tom was rocked to leave.

Alistair:                Yeah. So that might more redundancy story. Yeah. I mean I say story, it's an authentic police because it's the hot, but it might, my re my [inaudible] scribing. Oh. I felt internally very strong and very comfortable with the redundancy and how it happened, why it happened and how are you felt about it? I was very positive about it. Yeah. It's, it'll think this again. I look at it and say, yeah, in my personal experience, Oh, I had time. And the thing that we're, people don't have time. It's hard. It w it would be harder. Don't have the time to process. It's all happening in a rush if you haven't been through it before. There's a lot of unknowns. There's a lot of, it's, there's a lot of information coming at you. There's a lot of them.

Renata:                There's a grieving process that you probably, dealt with it much better because you had such a great employee and because you knew it was coming and you knew the world was a transformational role. It's a very curious way of wedding. I've always had transformational role, so I'm [inaudible] have always been notorious for shooting myself on the foot.

Alistair:                Well, it's, it's part of the, yes.

Renata:                So, if I'm head of governance and now all of a sudden we don't have 39 committees anymore, we only have nine. You don't really need a head of governance. So I told my boss can I move on to something else? And I moved on and I have been doing transformations like that for quite some time. So now I have my own business and that's much better. I can manage my own, I could shoot myself on the foot and call some other clients.

Alistair:                The beauty of it as well. Okay. And that's the other bit, Rog, the Bay. That's the, I think that's, there's also an element of being open to change what you've just described thereof going from, well I recognize that there was, you didn't have the need for that role and now I'm working for myself, et cetera, et cetera. Is that we, people who have been with an organization for a long time are almost hardwired to, I've been with the organization a long time. I'll have to be with an employer a long time. It's actually, yeah, yeah. The world's changed and that's something I think particularly, yeah, it, boy, I saw the bracket. We've been with the organization. Food. Yeah. 20 plus years. It's actually quite refreshing to think, well, I can go and work the nom obviously. I would like to think I'll be with my new employer for a number of years, but I can be there. I'd have to be there for 27 years mean I'll be there for both. There's no, there's no rules.

Renata:                It's quite refreshing. That's wonderful. You have a very positive person. I would say the final point in your LinkedIn post was you had fun. What was fun about it?

Alistair:                So look, yeah, even this or that, this is completely new to me. I've never been on the podcast before. I only just found out the bed them, I need this fan another bit. I'm off the game I ever done that don't be the, not that tech savvy. So as from all the tech issues we had early on, any fan data's about podcasts. When I, after my redundancy and gee, they're great and they, here I am on one. So things like that have been fun connecting with some people I hadn't spoken to for ages. And look, there's an awkwardness to that cause it's like, geez, I haven't talked to him for ages. Now here I am. So look at the blue side. Hi, let's catch up. But that's the taxi funder reconnect.

Renata:                Yes, you would be sitting, I mean you'll probably be surprised that people were very keen to reconnect. Right. That's the bit as well, the amount of help

Alistair:                people genuinely offer. It was just lovely. You know the number. Yeah, I'd frame people who, yeah, we w we were acquaintances through work, but I'd say have become, really with friends through this process. Just through [inaudible] the reassurance if you get in constant rejections, looking at your CV, giving you some Aldi's or opening doors up for you and things like that. So to me it was fun in that calm in those conversations and to be honest, talking to all the recruiters, but a lot of the recruiters I spoke to, it was actually fun catching up with them. That was a really nice people and it'd be really good to get to know people. Yeah. I was really lucky, as I mentioned earlier, the breach through that. But Cori, coach Emma, she was great to get to know and she was a genuine, sincere in those person

Renata:                shout out to him or the NS, totally

Alistair:                one who genuinely had best interests [inaudible] at and was working hard with me to help get that and gave me pump ups, went on them and things like that. So all of that. Yeah, all of that combined together. Oh, the classes having Bay, the process fun. Okay. Actually having those conversations, catching up with people and just seeing how genuinely supportive and helpful and sincere people are in wanting to see you succeed. Yes. Very low. And now that you're so open up to that network and catching up, it will be, it will serve you really well in a new town because you've moved and you need to be very open and continue to grow your, network. Yes. So now, yeah, I hope that stays with you. Absolutely. Rather. And the other bit is playing it forward. Right. So as, as helpful as people were to me, Oh, I've already had a couple of conversations with people who contacted me.

Alistair:                Again, after seeing the, the post, I'm just wanting to just have a chat about what I did and how I did it. So again, that's [inaudible] [inaudible] how did the process, it's like they will help me, I'm keen to, so they'll be that support for others who are going through the process as well because yeah, it's amazing. Thank you. Thought to it until you're in the spot. But there's a lot of people out there looking for roles at the moment. Yes. Yes, they are. Do you think that there are lots of people that left the banking and finance sector? Are you finding that there was a big restructuring the sector recently? Well, I will. So I would say it's not just banking and finance specifically. Yes. I know there have been restructures within [inaudible] that ends with the other thanks. And there'll be more SPECT, but also have to talk to other people from outside of banking and finance who have gone through, yeah.

Alistair:                Restructures in there. Well with those actions as well. So your large organizations are constantly having a look at with how they operate and how they, yeah. More efficient. That's leading to a lot of change for a lot of people. And that's, I'm not going to go away. I wouldn't expect a one. I'll think for me it's going to cause a lot of people, go create some, yeah. So some hi. Like for some people along the way because it isn't easy looking for a role in their hour. Well, it's a good quality people at, they're looking for them. Well, I think my Oh, main set of my post about some of the tips, if you lie for Viking taping the raw mindset, nothing helps. All right. And that would be the outside of that moment. Say these as you're going to yeah. [inaudible]

Alistair:                And if you've got you, yeah. You get to that point. Yeah. You've, you've being knocked back, knocked back, knocked back. Being able to type the positive moments, it ended the meeting pretty cool to show, yeah. The prospective employee or the best of you. And I would like to think that the role I got, I was successful at the unit because of authenticity and transparency. And because of my genuine passion, they're getting to not for profits. Yeah. Cause I know I didn't think every single box again, for that role. I don't know. I ticked a lot of boxes and I think that being able to demonstrate a passion for the role and, and the authenticity about why I wanted the role. And also having done a heck of a lot of research about it and about them brought to the interview to me state.

Renata:                Oh, excellent. Alistair, I think that's a great way to finish off our conversation. It's been super lovely talking to you. Thank you so much. And I didn't expect that it was a sea change as well as the sector change. So that was icing on the top for me. I really love your story and I hope it resonates to a lot of the listeners. And I will end up buying by chain you to join the podcasts group. We have a private group on Facebook and you might, you could be a great mentor to many people that are joining us on that private group. So I'll send you a link so you can join us day.

Alistair:                Thank you very much. That'd be great. And thank you for your time. It's been good fun. As I say first time I've but then on the podcasts so,

Renata:                Oh I hope it's not the last time you might be on the podcast to talk about your not for profit career, so that's right.

Alistair:                He's hoping. Fantastic. Thanks so much for nada. Okay.

Renata:                I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. Alistair is such a great talker and we could have gone on for another hour for sure. As we were saying our goodbyes, he mentioned how important planning was for his job search and I just wanted to hit record and start all over again because planning is my middle name. I am obsessed with planning, but it goes to show it is very important indeed and I'd be happy to help with that. So stay tuned for future content on planning for job hunting. I think it's really important that we touch on that on future episodes. As I mentioned earlier after listening to Alistair, I felt that I could share with you an email template to help you reach out to headhunters and recruiters that you don't know. It may be that they are experts in your field sector or they work in a town or a city that you want to move to.

Renata:                Like Allister did. Remember to adapt the tone of this template to suit your sector is this template was created by me for more formal corporate environment. So for example, if you are in retail or communications, you may want to review it and adapt it, make it a little bit more casual. You should also add your own authentic flair to it of course. So I'm happy for you to do that. And if you have any questions or you want to share your new version, use the podcast group to do that and we will certainly give you feedback. Okay, so you will find this template on my website, on this link, Renata bernardi.com. Forward slash eight bonus, Renata bernardi.com forward slash eight bonus. I will also add this link to the episode notes. I should have thought of that before. Okay, bye. For now.

 

 


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