Transcript #35. "Let me call you back" - Recruitment trends shaping the job market in 2020

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Renata:                Anita so nice of you to accept this invitation. And we've known each other for a while. I really admire you as a search executive. I've always enjoyed working with Slade, both as a client and as a candidate over the years, you know, I worked with slate for 20 years and I think it's very common for people like me to work on both sides of the fence. I have no idea what you do, you know, on your day to day, and I've always wanted to ask you. So that was my first question for you. You know, what is a day like for you? If I were a fly on the wall, what it would look like?

Anita:                    Like many people every day is different. I can't tell you that any day's the same, but I'm a great one for lists. So I guess as, in terms of history, it would have been great to collect all my lists and then I can just go day by day and I still keep a manual list early in my twenties. I worked with a really great leader who said you can't plan your day unless you have a list. And I know people have all sorts of online pieces, but I still do my list every night. So in the morning I know what's important and what has to be attended to. And it's one of those things that guided me through, because at any one time I can have 10 to 20 pressing assignments and they are sometimes full-blown or in early stages or in business development or candidate related. And unless I have a focus, I can't keep all the balls in the air. And so I'm somebody who works pretty fast, but perhaps because I'm pretty organised in the background is maybe my thinking. Sometimes it's also just in time management and I laugh at how I've just got there, but I deliver. So, and also through covid, I think we've all become much more comfortable about our lives in terms of our personal, not professional lives.

Anita:                    And the other thing that I do every day and I will get into the details is I think about where am I going to put my exercise in? When am I going to get my leafy greens and my vitamin C? And they're just some fundamental, healthy things that I always think about because when things get really busy, those things can go to the wayside. And unless I have my health, I can't function. So that's just a funny little quirk of mine.

Renata:                That's great.

Anita:                    And at this point I am in the office. We work in the CBD when we're in the office, but I've been working down at Shoreham and in Richmond. And so I took my exercise by walking to work this morning.

Renata:                Wow. You know, looking at your LinkedIn profile with all of the open-ended appointments that you have, it's hard to see how you can fit in anything else. And it would be interesting also to explain, because the podcast is listened to by candidates, right? Mainly people that are interested in their careers, they are currently job hunting, they're ambitious for their careers. And it would be interesting for us to go through the different types of recruitment opportunities that are out there because your company deals with everything from temping and contracting all the way to executive search. And I think it reflects on your different appointments. Am I right?

Anita:                    That's exactly right.

Renata:                Can you describe each one for us?

Anita:                    I might just explain the broader Slade group, is that all right?

Renata:                Yeah. Sure.

Anita:                    We've got four different or probably five, I would say broadly five different parts of the business, and they're all related to recruitment and HR. And when we say recruitment, that's an internal term, really for a candidate, it's around work and employment opportunities and how we work. So that's, it broadly covers everything. And if I start at the contracting and temporary side of it, that is casual, we do some, we have some extraordinary contracts in areas that people wouldn't necessarily be aware of, for example. And I don't know if this is too much detail, but when we go to the airport and there might be perhaps a sniffer dog smelling our luggage, if we've got an Apple, if we're going to Tasmania or something, when we quit, those dogs are bred by Australian border force and they have a whole water force dog breeding programme.

Anita:                    And we have a contract to provide the casual, I guess, the animal carers.

Renata:                Oh, so I have a candidate for that.

Anita:                    So some extraordinary niche contracts like that, some casual relief teachers and sessional teachers. And then obviously all the natural white collar, temporary executive interim staff that we're more familiar with in our professional lives.

Renata:                See I never knew that about Slade, because I only applied for senior exec roles.

Anita:                    No, and they're obscure contracts, which suit his particular niche of both candidate and client. And because we have the, I guess the quality processes that allow us to serve that and manage the candidates and the pay rolling and the duty of care that comes with that, we can do that. And then we have, you know, whether it's support staff or marketing managers or interim CFOs, all those contracts, interim appointments that we do that come under what we call the interchange bench. So it's on and off as in when required. And we think at the moment, that's probably going to be a growth area because as organisations come back at some point, it's going to be quite tentative and it's towing the water. Let me take a small risk without an ongoing commitment. And that will be a relief for candidates because I don't think anybody would knock back a six week or six month contract if there's the opportunity to work and with an opportunity to perhaps do more.

Renata:                Yes. I wanted you to address all of that because the situation that we're in, if we're unemployed during the 2020 lockdown, and we have the opportunity to reconsider our career paths and what we want to do in the future, we can dream, we can change careers. We can start over, we can breed dogs for the security, if that's what we want to do, you know, like we really have this opportunity of a lifetime with sectors disappearing to really rethink what's important to us and what we want to achieve for the rest of our lives.

Anita:                    Yes, that's absolutely right. And I think the longer this goes on, the more we might have to do a shift in thinking, and I think it'd be lovely to talk about that a bit more Renata, just finishing off with the Slade group piece, our generally executive selection area, which is white collar professional staff across a myriad of different professions and sectors. And that's probably what we're known for the Transearch business is a global executive search partnership. That's made up of a roundabout 60 boutique executive search firms globally. And they use a product called orchestra, which is about fit and that's international work with very high level senior appointments. We have a talent mapping business called Yellow folder, and that's an interesting consulting business. So in terms of info, it's about, we talked about work before it's information about the workplace very broadly and very high level.

Anita:                    So for example, you might be a global enterprise and you know that you have a particular role that is very high risk and high value. And if that person were to move on, have a change of heart, if hit by a bus, God forbid, then where is the talent that can quickly fit that role? And there are organisations that are looking at succession planning for these key roles and keeping a watching brief so that they are protecting their business. It's quite an interesting research piece. And the other piece is the HR consulting piece. So we have a partnership with Stilwell. So Slade Stilwell, and that's a team of four org psychs that do any piece that an organisation needs from position, description and development through to teams, leadership development, learning to have difficult conversations, psychological assessments, you name it, they do it. So that's, we're all about the landscape of work.

Renata:                It's amazing. I had no idea that you still have the York site team work done. I used to do a lot of work with Slade back in nearly two thousands with Alison Knight and Gavin Sharp. Remember that, so they were my partners in crime, and were developing leadership programmes for the MBA at Monash university long time ago. That is interesting to see how that then gives recruiters and people that work in this industry of yours, a really good intelligence of what's going on in the market. So when the clients or the candidates come to you, you have a lot of background information that the candidate doesn't even know that you do. And it's really interesting. I have a client who I've been working with for a few weeks now, and now she's got to a point where she's meeting headhunters and recruiters.

Renata:                And she told me something that I don't think she realised she didn't realise how difficult the job was. You know, she met so many and they were all so good at giving her advice and giving her feedback on her resume and telling her how the market was moving. And she's like, I didn't have any idea, you know, so, but many people don't have that experience with job hunting. And they also complain a lot about the radio silence from their perspective, when they approach recruiters or head-hunters, explain to a candidate how the process works from your side of the business, so that they can understand and understand that, you know, there is a process going on that they won't be communication all the time. Am I right?

Anita:                    It is. It's a really difficult one for us to manage because it's, it's one to many, but those many are all individuals. And that's the hard thing that we have to constantly manage. So let me take not an executive search approach, but if we take a general advertised recruitment approach, whether it's through LinkedIn or Seek or our own website.

Renata:                That's the best example.

Anita:                    And let's say that's general white collar executives, professionals, and we, and I'll use a hundred, we get a hundred responses. And if candidates can think of it, like the Australian tennis open, there are a hundred competitors going into that open, but only one will end up with the trophy. And so what happens as we go through it, we have to screen for most likely fit. And it's always a competitive set. So if you were in a village which was dying for candidates, and there were a lot of jobs, then probably people would make you fit into the role available.

Anita:                    However, when you've got a role and there are 10 of those, a hundred who are an easy fit towards the brief, and 90 of those people are simply going to get an email and say, no, thanks. And that’s hard. And that feels like rejection, but you mustn't take it personally. It's just that in this role, there were other people's backgrounds that looked like it would be an easier fit. And so then were left with the 10 people and those 10 people can assume that they will get maybe an acceptance of an application email, and then a phone call. And that's why I said to you, it's really about making the candidate when they hear that word, let me call you back. That's a really good sign. Okay. Because that's, when you think I'm in the mix. And that's where I've hit the nail on the head in terms of my background and my potential to fit this role.

Anita:                    And from those 10, we as consultants have to make sure that we manage expectations because one of 10 is still only 10%, but a far greater chance of not being successful, then you have at being successful. So I sometimes say we're in the art of rejection and that is really sad. But for every person I say, you, we would like to go to reference check with you because you've been, you're the preferred candidate. I have to have nine difficult conversations with those people that aren't going to have that happen to them. And so, again, that's a really deep sense of projection because by the time I have to make that call, we'd built up a really good, trusted relationship. And I wouldn't have considered you for that role, if I didn't think that you could do that role, but I'm not the final arbiter and decision maker, so I can bring you to the table, but the employer decides who they want to take through.

Anita:                    Yes. But they're saved. They're saved by the heartache and the grief of building up those relationships and having to say, I'm sorry. No.

Renata:                Does it get to you? Is it hard at days?

Anita:                    It is, but I have to learn to compartmentalise. And I find it particularly hard when I know that a client has really sweated it out between maybe the last two or three and it could have gone any way. And it's just, it's not an exact science, as we all know. And so that's, somebody's livelihood at somebody, you know, it's the sliding doors moment. What could have been what couldn't have been, but I can't own it. Otherwise I'd be in a, curled up in a corner.

Renata:                Do you think that the recruitment and selection process, as it is done today is still the best way of putting a candidate inside a job?

Anita:                    I spoke about this yesterday on a webinar with Becky, and I think we've got a much heightened and increasingly heightened awareness of diversity. So diversity, just to some steps. And we're talking about racial diversity here, particularly, but let's talk about it across all areas of diversity, but in Australia, for example, 75% of us, and I'm one of them have an Anglo Celtic or European background, and nearly 25% of us have a non-European Anglo or indigenous background. And yet this is the startling stat in nearly 97% of senior executives interviewed, they all had Anglo Celtic or European backgrounds. Something's wrong with the system that doesn't even take into situations where you've got gender identity or disability, or any of the other issues that come into diversity, but just on race alone.

Anita:                    And so how we are bringing people into an organisation and what the criteria is, you know, there are all sorts of things like the halo effect and the horn effect, and, you know, the problem of agreement in panels and our conscious and unconscious biases are stopping organisations from improving the diversity that we have in the organisations in Australia. And that plays out to all sorts of things in our community. If we end up with enclaves of races that aren't integrated through the workplace, it's problematic. So we do have to increase our awareness. So I have said enough, it's a little bit of a strange one, but I had a candidate who had a very unusual surname and I can't remember what it was, but I suggested to him that he changed his first name to Billy or something. I think it was Billy, just because I know people have a lot of prejudices and biases about how they read CVs and it's unfair. But until we educate until we set targets, until we sit with our uncomfortable truths, it's going to continue on.

Renata:                Knowing you. I can imagine how uncomfortable this must have been, but I also understand, and I've been in that situation as well, that your job is to convert people into jobs. And you want to get this person over the line. You know, let's leave changing the world, you know, for tomorrow. And you just want to help this one person. And you know that this will make a difference. It's horrible. Isn't it?

Anita:                    I mean, if we need to do work arounds for a while, I'm happy to do the workarounds until there's a universal sense that it's not okay. Because the other thing is, the numbers are showing us that diversity in senior executive levels leads to better performance at an EBIT line. So the data's there.

Renata:                It's in the age this morning. I don't know if you saw it.

Anita:                    I saw the gender numbers. Yep. Again I feel like that's been so done it's almost like a fact. I can’t believe its still being spoken about. But then I heard Renata a news item this morning. I thought, did I hear that right? Talking about people who are having to stay in hotels on their, in their isolation, on returning and it's this many tourists and it's many travellers returning home and businessmen. I’m like, did I just hear something right? They said businessmen. What? They’re deeply entrenched, language makes a big difference.

Renata:                It does. Doesn't it? It's men that do business, not women. Got it. Now we mentioned the example of a LinkedIn job. I am seeing LinkedIn jobs still showing up, but I'm also seeing the statistics showing that for the past two months, the jobs have been greatly reduced in numbers, the job ads on LinkedIn. I know you have different numbers from probably Seek or Indeed. I would like you to share with us, you know, what's happening right now. And if you have any forecast or your best guesstimate for the next few months, for those who are job hunting and looking for work, what is it that they should be expecting to see in the next months ahead?

Anita:                    Renata, I'd love to speak to your parties and say, it's all going to be great and helpful. But this week I have to say, I'm feeling quite bearish again. I think the data is heading South, not North. And I think we have to be prepared for a very tough time. And the reason I'm saying is that none of us have a crystal ball. If I'm proved wrong. When somebody listens to this in October, I would rather they laughed at me and said, Oh my God, how wrong was she? Than somebody who listens to it and go, gosh, glad I was prepared for the worst.

Renata:                I agree. There was an article on LinkedIn and they were interviewing a very good consultancy company. And they said, Oh, it will all be much better in six to 18 months’ time, that's a window. And I'm like, yeah, that's, you know, one of the big four firms saying six and 18 months, things will turn around. And I'm like, likely I could have said that. Anybody could have said that, you know? Yeah, I do. But I agree with you. And I think it's better to be bearish in our thoughts because then you make more conservative, financial planning as well. And I know it's really tough, but it's better to be able to stretch out whatever budget you have, whatever funding you have for this long runway of unemployment, which is turning out to be 2020, rather than be too optimistic and then run out of money quickly.

Anita:                    No. And so in terms of preparing myself, if I'm currently not employed and I'm in a sort of a mid-career stage because the under thirties have been hit the hardest. So I'm not sure that I'll even go into the under thirties Renata cause that's a whole another challenge. Okay, let's go over 30 sets really tough. But if you're mid-career now I'm going to give you the bad news. And then I'm going to give you the opportunities perhaps as, as our observations. And I'm not saying this is set in stone, I'm just making an observation about if you follow the money, you obviously often get your answer in terms of employment. So what's down. Even if we start with not-for-profits donations are down so that they're going to be severely challenged, higher education. We know in Victoria and I think Australia wide, it's not going to be that different.

Anita:                    I'll just keep give you the Victorian numbers. The foreign student market is worth $12 billion to the universities. That's 220,000 students. And that directly impacts about 80,000 jobs. Arts and culture is down. Tourism is down, hospitality's down building and construction. The forecasts that the big building and construction businesses have, this is outside of infrastructure for commercial and domestic down. Infrastructure, governments are trying to do what they can do around that professional services are going to go down too, because when there are less deals being made and when there's less growth, people stop using professional services firms more because they just don't need them. Sport and leisure, it's challenged and down. Superannuation funds, I'm not quite sure about because of the nature of the withdrawal. So there's a lot more administration at a lot of funds. I've had a lot of money taken out of them. So what does that mean?

Anita:                    So year on year now, by May the employment job ads are down 50% in some areas they're down 70 and 80%. So that's the tough area. And I'm sure there are plenty more that talk about recruitment. You know, our business it's been hit hard and I know that there's some early talk now about what we are going to do about job keeper? Because if everybody moves on to job seeker and they have a job seeker, I don't know how we can avoid a depression. I just, the numbers don't add up to me. So that's, we can't control the future from a governance perspective, but that's some just be aware and a little bit alarmed about what the future could look like. Conversely, there are some opportunities. And so the areas where I think sectors and professions and work that the trades are still calling up for people. It's interesting, isn't it? So the plumbers, the hairdressers electricians, there's just, there's just a lack of people going into those.

Renata:                We couldn't wait to go back to the hairdressers, couldn’t we? Get me with my fringe, I can't live without my hairdresser. I try cutting my fringe without her. It didn't work. When I got there my fringe was on an angle. You had to fix it. She's still fixing it. It still needs another two months before we can get it back. But you're right. And those are things that we can afford to buy as well. It's that lipstick? It's the lipstick mentality.

Anita:                    So digital, IT, ITC, they're still hotspots. And it was interesting when Dan said this morning that they're going to be increasing the cost of arts degrees, commerce degrees, and law degrees, but they're going to be reducing the cost of students and opening up student numbers in maths, nursing, IT, et cetera, because that's and ag. And that's where the growth is and agriculture is a big one. I've said before, if you can move or if you can change industries, I would look at ag. I know from last year, I think in ag, there was eight vacancies fit every person wanting to work in ag. So I do think there is work there if you want to work in the ag, if you can uproot yourself and your family. But again, in mid career, often we're settled with family and commitments. So there's a challenge.

Renata:                And Ag can be tech. Agriculture can be tech.

Anita:                    There's some fantastic data online about the 50 biggest ag businesses in Australia, there are not all of them, Australian owned, but they are big employers. And we know all follow the money we need to eat. Ag, all ends up on our plate somewhere. So that's the sector that I think is very interesting. And the tech, as you said in ag is really interesting.

Renata:                Oh, it's so exciting. One of the most interesting aspects of my last job at Monash University was to boost the Ag tech team there and help them make some connections and partnership with Bosch to also allow Bosch to flourish, post the shutdown of the automotive industry in Australia. Yes, we needed to have something else to focus on and grab onto. So that partnership with Bosch and Monash is still going and very interesting. And it's all about Ag Tech. We went to San Francisco, we went to Silicon Valley to visit a whole bunch of Austrade. We went into a conference we saw and with a lot of start-ups as well. So you don't have to be big, you can be small. So it's really interesting to see the advancement in that area.

Anita:                    And some of that goes into the bio sciences as well. And it covers a lot of different areas.

Renata:                What does it mean though, for people who are in these sectors that have shut down completely almost, and they may need to transfer their skills. Do you see this year as a year where people re-skill or are many of the skills transferable.

Anita:                    I'll call my view. I think I have a sophisticated view, but I wouldn't say that a lot of employers share that view because underlying skills and underlying capability and aptitude and motivation means you can transfer across a whole lot of different areas. Remember skills are learned if I'm mapping the seafloor. I'm sure if I sat next to somebody working that machinery for two weeks, you know, I probably would pick it up.

Renata:                The best candidates have that mentality. Don't you find?

Anita:                    Yeah, they do. But for your candidates, Renata, we have to make sure that the employers see it the same way. And for you in your work with candidates, it's helping the candidates with their narrative and their interpretation for the employer. Who's buying their services as an employee. So that's where communication skills do come in and you would be helping them unpack what those core capabilities and attributes are so that they can demonstrate that to an employer.

Anita:                    But I also am a great believer in adapting your CV to a role, making it easy. It's true what they say about us as recruiters, I'm afraid to say, we often do spend 10 seconds looking at a CV. Cause we're just looking, we're scanning it for something that we know. If it's a little bit like many people who are dipped at their particular role or skill or focus it's if you, if you ask Djokovic how he plays a forehand shot, he cannot break it down. It's intuitive. But if we can learn how to break down what our underlying skillset is and capability, we can then adapt our CVs for particular roles. Knowing what an organisation is looking for.

Renata:                Is it very hard that resumes are not standard and that people send you the resumes and they are very different from each other? When you're scanning it in 10 seconds.

Anita:                    It is, it is. Yeah. And I'm sure some candidates miss out because they don't have that formula right.

Renata:                What is the best formula or template that you like to see? Is there a best one or sometimes you're surprised by something that's completely out of the box and you go, Oh, this is interesting. What is the best thing?

Anita:                    Sometimes I do, but I couldn't tell you what that is. It must be something about it. But I always look for a couple of things. This is what makes it easy for me. One is name your organisation and your job title. And just because you worked at an organisation for five years, doesn't mean that I know about that organisation. Just gave me two lines. You know, ABC company does X, X, X with X, X, X, that's all I need to know what sector it's in, what it does, et cetera.

Anita:                    Just two lines. Give me your role. And then I want to see your, I want three or four bullet points under your responsibilities. And then I want three or four bullet points under your achievements because I'm, I've become fairly hard nosed over the years. There's and this is a terrible way of looking at it, but there's labour and capital. So when capital is buying labour, it wants to know. And I'll talk about it as a sort of an economic term. It wants to know what is the value that they are buying. So I can't bear it when I see responsibilities and there are 12 bullet points and it goes on for ages, I think, Oh my gosh, this person does not have a commercial head. So the responsibilities is what I call the narrative. Talk about, you know, the essence of your PD and your responsibilities, and then the achievements I'm looking for somebody that understands their value to the organisation.

Anita:                    How many people did they lead? What was their budget? What did they achieve in terms of percentage increases their cost savings, their project deliverables? What was it? So I'm looking for numbers. I'm looking for percentage signs up and down dollar signs. I want to know that they think commercially. And even if you are in the university sector, you are being funded by the tax payer and by the student, follow the money who is paying your wage. So, you know, rewrote this, create this curriculum, manage this research project, delivered X number in grants money. What is it that is your achievement.

Renata:                How do you feel about Individuals, especially in the university sector or public sector or large bricks and mortar institution that internally have always felt that they never had the ownership of the job or that the project, even though they did it, you know, that feeling that people have, you know, yes, I know I did all the work, but it wasn't my project. It was a team effort.

Anita:                    And I don't know if I've ever asked you this, but sometimes I'll ask somebody who I get a sense is capable and speaks a lot in ‘we’, we did this, and we did that. And that's really, it's a genuinely lovely and collaborative approach. And that's what I'm looking for, but I want to know what were you responsible for? So the question I asked, which often brings a smile to people's faces because they're waiting to own something because they know they've done it. Like you've just said, and that is what do you know would not have happened if not for you. If you were not in that team or there at that point of time, what would not have happened because convert, do you know what I mean? Like, it's, you can own that without bragging.

Anita:                    You know, that if you weren't there, that would not have happened because conversely, we know that people that come out of high performing organisations, you know, the stock market darlings or the, you know, they're always in the media, they're all there. You know, their shares are going up. You know, sometimes it's luck and timing that people have been in an organisation at the right time in the right place. But really that organisation would have shown whether they were there or not. And sometimes they come out with a sense of entitlement perhaps, or they've got their own halo effect because they've got this brand attachment. But in fact, we have to dig deep and say, well, what did you actually do to contribute to that?

Renata:                No, it's a really tough one for many people, especially women I find too. So it's a good way of putting it. I think we're kind of at the tail end of this aren't we can't remember anything else that we've agreed to talk about, but happy for you to maybe give our candidates and our listeners, some ideas about post the, let's say we go through this next 18 months as the consultant said, and yes, expert said that 18 months will be the end of, you know, we will see some positive results. Let's say 18 months have gone by at the end of 2021. How do you see Slade group and the recruitment world operating by then? I mean, it's hard. I know it's hard for you to say, but I'm sort of hoping that, you know, with the conversations that you're having with your peers and or opportunities like yesterday, when you were at the Victoria and chamber of commerce during the webinar, what is your feeling based on people that you are talking to about us being able to pick up the economy next year? At least the reason why I say that is that sometimes some of these people that have lost jobs have never taken a break ever, you know, and sometimes it's okay to take a break and what better time than now? I know you can't go anywhere, but you might as well enjoy where you are and make the most out of this, make it a project, make it something that you can relax and go with the flow rather than fight it.

Renata:                I don't, I'm torn between those two concepts of, I still think that if you are in a tough financial situation and you need a job, you do not give up. You cure your day as if you were working full time and you work with me, be it, you know, an a coaching agreement or for free. I have enough free content for you to keep yourself occupied and keep applying for jobs. Because when you apply for jobs, you keep a finger on the pulse of the market and you know, what's going on. And you know how position descriptions are being weak and where the jobs are happening. Like you said, the industries that are still going, the ones that are not. So you're still, you know, pretty much in the know. Whereas if you take a break, when you rise up again, you have some catching up to do. But for some people, this might be the opportunity to take a break and I'm all for it as well. What do you think?

Anita:                    Um, gosh, that's another hour I think Renata. I should have put my new stand on all the things I need to cover. I'm going to jump to the end, which is something I've been considering. I think through COVID because I don't know whether the experts are right in terms of 18 months, it might be five years. It might be a flat decade. Let's be, who knows there's no cure for AIDS. I don't know what we're going to be living with. I honestly don't know. So if you are in a couples relationship, if you are not on your own, I'm thinking that some people will be actually strategic about what that couples profile looks like.

Anita:                    So one will be in a secure job, and I can't tell you what that is right now, but you can do your own homework on that. And the other may come in and out and they may change every decade. But the security of one income is really important at the time like this, because I know people now that where both incomes have been decimated or out. So being a bit strategic, I'm also suggesting to people that they leave their passion aside for the moment. Right now you can reduce your anxiety. If you just know you can cover your rent or your mortgage or food on the table and your bills. So let's put aside the need to find my passion and what I love to do. Let's look at the fundamental Maslow's housekeeping issues. And then as things change, we can revert back to having our heart in our job, as well as our minds.

Anita:                    And we have to find joy in other things right now. So I think that's something that I would like to just say to people. And then I'd like to just talk about that frictional unemployment. I love that word frictional, but I don't know where it comes from, but I've had it explained. Thank you. Economic theory. And I think for your, all the parties out there who are in between roles right now, that's a really hard place to be because you don't know how long it's going to be. And how often I have heard people go, I would have enjoyed my three or six months more. If I knew that there was going to be this ending. Worrying about what the future holds takes away, the pleasure of this career gap. And because we all dream of having through a six months off don’t we?

Renata:                We do all the time, and then we're giving, it's not the way that we wanted it.Be careful what you wish for. It's hard to enjoy it.

Anita:                    That's right. So, my heart goes out to you if you're in that situation, but if you can talk about it, if you're in a partnership with your other half and not fret about it, but make a plan for the worst, what's your plan B like, maybe just enjoy your three months and then have a plan B if you're, if the employment market doesn't improve so that you can, you know, pay the rent, keep the mortgage, you know, keep the kids in school, whatever you're having to do and pay your bills. These are times like we've never had before. And just because we think we have a blueprint for our life, that's in our head. Maybe we have to change that blueprint and just say, this is different now.

Anita:                    And I'm going to learn something out of this and I'm going to come out of it as a better person or a stronger person or a more resilient person.

Renata:                But the other thing too, is we're speaking from the privilege of being in Australia. Whereas, you know, my country, Brazil, it just compounds existing problems. So it's not like, you know, unemployment wasn't high before COVID it just made it worse. So it just for many countries where people are listening to the podcast as well, it really does compound existing social issues, economic issues that the country was already experimenting.

Anita:                    And the young people in Greece, after the GFC tertiary qualified couples, who've had to go back to the grandparents' farm on an Island and become market gardeners for a couple of years, there was nothing going, you have to be adaptable and flexible and look after what you can do today. I think it's, everybody I do, I feel very much for you right now.

Renata:                Well, Anita thank you so much for your empathy, for all of your advice and your honesty as well about what's going on. And I'm sure that people will appreciate it because I think there's no point in, you know, making big claims about what's going to happen if we don't know. And most importantly, it's so great to have that insight from a recruiter's perspective of what happens when a candidate goes through the process. I think a lot of people will appreciate listening to this podcast and learning a little bit more about the recruitment and selection process. So thank you so much.

Anita:                    And Renata just for your parties. You are so lucky to have Renata guiding you through this. So thank you. Bye

Renata:                Bye.

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